Hi Manny,

On Sat, 25 May 2024, Manny wrote:
> In that case it should not exist in Debian. A pkg in the official
> Debian repo should never be unsupported by Debian because Debian
> support staff use inclusion of software in official repos as the
> defining factor as to whether they support an app.

It allows installing packages into $HOME/texmf by setting up tlmgr user
mode with
        tlmgr init-usertree

This is *ALL* documented.

> Alternatively, I think it would be fair to say there is limited
> support if its existence persists in Debian, but that needs to be
> defined. Debian users are receiving documentation and a tool that does
> not work as documented. There are two reasonable options: fix the tool
> or fix the docs.

Incorrect. Debian tlmgr runs in usermode, and the documentation of tlmgr
clearly states under the heading of usermode that not all actions are

> I certainly do not mean to try to push any work on anyone, but one of
> those directions should at least be selected as a goal to work
> toward. Fixing the docs, IMO, could be a matter of explicity listing

No need. Just read the section on usermode.

> Otherwise, how do testers even know what is a reportable bug and what
> is not?  How does a user know whether tlmgr can help them before they
> spend much time on it?  The docs are not doing their job.

Reading the output of tlmgr, and reading the man page.
tlmgr states clearly that it switches to usermode.
The man page states clearly that one has to run init-usertree first.
The man page states clearly that only a few commands are supported by

> The README.tlmgr-on-Debian.md (which escaped me before my first 2 bug
> reports) is a good start on this and gives a good overview of the
> situation. But what’s missing is a list of functionality Debian users
> can expect to work.

Read the man page.

> I got the /info/ action partially working after you mentioned a
> specific mirror URL. You had to mention a specific URL because the
> docs are missing that information. The docs point to

Incorrect again. tlmgr told you that the remote repository is too new.
At the time when tl 2022 was released for Debian, the repository was the
correct one.

> I still stumbled. When visiting that directory, all the files therein
> are installation and upgrade scripts, which intuitively seems

Please, look a bit more carefully. There is a directory
which contains the tlpdb, and a directory for the actual packages.

> incorrect for a repository location to supply to a package manager, so
> I first tried supplying this URL instead:
>   https://pi.kwarc.info/historic/systems/texlive/2022/
> which failed:

Yes, because you didn't read what I wrote:

> So for 2022 you can for example
>        https://pi.kwarc.info/historic/systems/texlive/2022/tlnet-final/

This included the correct tlnet-final

> $ tlmgr --usermode info --only-installed
> (no output)

Yes, as I told you, tlmgr cannot be used to give information about the
GLOBAL installation, only about the packages that are installed in
usermode, that is into the initialized usertree.

You don't have any package installed.
So the above output is correct.

What do you expect?

Again, please read the usermode section.

> It still failed to list locally installed packages and
> versions. Omitting --only-installed now has output but the list is

See above. tlmgr works ONLY on your TEXMFHOME

> So “info --only-installed” is still broken. I cannot think of a more

It is not. It does *exactly* what it is supposed to do. List the
packages you have installed via tlmgr into $TEXMFHOME.

> A package manager that runs as a user when launched by root is
> inherently a dodgy situation because the root account should not be

I don't know what you are talking about. I have TeX Live installed
into ~/tl/2024 and can use tlmgr as user. No root involved.

> We expect the powers of root to be needed for tlmgr operations because
> we expect it to perform systemwide ops. But if root’s powers are not

No. tlmgr *CANNOT* and is *FORBIDDEN* to change files that are installed
by apt. Full stop.

> After my attempt to run tlmgr as root forced me into user mode, I

No need to run as root.

> What’s astonishing here is that tlmgr is provided with the Debian
> texlive pkg, so it’s consequently implied that it’s meant to work with
> the Debian texlive installation that it is packaged with. Software

Yes, in usermode, clearly stated in the output of tlmgr.
I think I mentioned that already?

> When a Debian sanctioned package manager comes with apps that the pkg
> manager manages, it has the ability to manage those pkgs. It think
> emacs package manager might be an example of that.

Huu, pip can manage your packages, but not if you install then via
        apt install python-foobar
That is the same situation.

BTW, for many years I **did** exclude tlmgr from the Debian packages,
and only on great pressure from Debian users I implemented the
"usermode" feature in tlmgr itself, and then included tlmgr in this
restricted mode in Debian.

Anyway, I am not anymore the maintainer. But I think the decisions I
made are still valid. And the documentation is all there.

If something is incorrect in the documentation of usermode or things
don't work as expected in usermode, I am open for bug reports - sent to
the TeX Live mailing list, not Debian. I will be happy to fix them.
But the behavior that is advertised in Debian is what is documented in
the manual page.

Maybe we should make the banner with the usermode warning like MUCH

****************** WARNING ************************************
Because you are using tlmgr as provided by Debian, tlmgr will
run in **usermode**.
Before continuing, read the section on usermode in the manual of
tlmgr, available by typing
        tlmgr help

But I think people will get annoyed seeing this every time.

Best regards


PREINING Norbert                              https://www.preining.info
arXiv / Cornell University   +   IFMGA Guide   +   TU Wien  +  TeX Live
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Reply via email to