Just to provide more data points. I had similar incompatibility issue with 
libfmt v10 vs clang-22 so we might need to bump the package to llvm-22 to make 
it work with libfmt v11

Please see 
https://salsa.debian.org/deeplearning-team/pytorch/-/merge_requests/16/diffs?commit_id=8c59383f3d06b8927f31c7a7fb017a2963fc4d51
 for details.

Best Regards,
Talha

> On 7 Oct 2026, at 21:58, Sebastian Ramacher <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Source: pytorch
> Version: 2.12.1+dfsg-1
> Severity: serious
> Tags: ftbfs
> Justification: fails to build from source (but built successfully in the past)
> X-Debbugs-Cc: [email protected]
> 
> Dear maintainer,
> 
> pytorch FTBFS with the new fmtlib:
> 
>  FAILED: [code=1] 
> caffe2/CMakeFiles/torch_cpu.dir/__/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp.o
>  /usr/bin/c++ -DAT_PER_OPERATOR_HEADERS -DBUILD_ONEDNN_GRAPH 
> -DCAFFE2_BUILD_MAIN_LIB -DDNNL_EXPERIMENTAL_UKERNEL -DENABLE_IPC_FABRIC 
> -DHAVE_MALLOC_USABLE_SIZE=1 -DHAVE_MMAP=1 -DHAVE_POSIX_FALLOCATE=1 
> -DHAVE_SHM_OPEN=1 -DHAVE_SHM_UNLINK=1 -DKINETO_NAMESPACE=libkineto 
> -DMINIZ_DISABLE_ZIP_READER_CRC32_CHECKS -DONNXIFI_ENABLE_EXT=1 -DONNX_ML=1 
> -DONNX_NAMESPACE=onnx -DTORCH_ENABLE_LLVM -DUSE_C10D_GLOO -DUSE_C10D_MPI 
> -DUSE_DISTRIBUTED -DUSE_EXTERNAL_MZCRC -DUSE_RPC -DUSE_TENSORPIPE 
> -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -Dtorch_cpu_EXPORTS 
> -DTORCH_ASSERT_ONLY_METHOD_OPERATORS 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build/aten/src 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg -I/usr/lib/llvm-21/include 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/moodycamel 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/torch/csrc/api 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/torch/csrc/api/include 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/caffe2/aten/src/TH 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build/caffe2/aten/src/TH 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build/caffe2/aten/src 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build/caffe2/../aten/src 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/torch/csrc 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/torch/headeronly 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/third_party/miniz-3.0.2 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/debian/kineto/libkineto/include
>  -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/debian/kineto/libkineto/src 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/third_party/cpp-httplib 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/third_party/nlohmann/include 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/build/vulkan 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/../third_party/VulkanMemoryAllocator
>  -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/.. 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/c10/.. 
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/native/quantized/cpu/qnnpack/include
>  
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/native/quantized/cpu/qnnpack/src
>  
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/native/quantized/cpu/qnnpack/deps/clog/include
>  
> -I/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/third_party/flatbuffers/include
>  -isystem 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/cmake/../third_party/googletest/googlemock/include
>  -isystem 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/cmake/../third_party/googletest/googletest/include
>  -isystem 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/cmake/../third_party/eigen 
> -isystem /usr/include/oneapi/dnnl -isystem 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/INTERFACE -isystem 
> /usr/include/concurrentqueue -isystem 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/caffe2 -isystem 
> /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/openmpi/include -isystem 
> /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/openmpi/include/openmpi -Wdate-time 
> -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -g -O2 
> -ffile-prefix-map=/build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg=. 
> -fstack-protector-strong -fstack-clash-protection -Wformat 
> -Werror=format-security -fcf-protection -Wno-dangling-reference  -I/usr 
> -fvisibility-inlines-hidden -DUSE_PTHREADPOOL -DUSE_KINETO 
> -DLIBKINETO_NOCUPTI -DLIBKINETO_NOROCTRACER -DLIBKINETO_NOXPUPTI=ON 
> -DUSE_PYTORCH_QNNPACK -DUSE_XNNPACK -DUSE_VULKAN -DUSE_VULKAN_API 
> -DSYMBOLICATE_MOBILE_DEBUG_HANDLE -O2 -fPIC -DC10_NODEPRECATED -Wall -Wextra 
> -Werror=return-type -Werror=non-virtual-dtor -Werror=range-loop-construct 
> -Werror=bool-operation -Wnarrowing -Wno-missing-field-initializers 
> -Wno-unknown-pragmas -Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-strict-overflow 
> -Wno-strict-aliasing -Wno-stringop-overflow -Wsuggest-override -Wno-psabi 
> -Wno-error=old-style-cast -faligned-new -Wno-maybe-uninitialized 
> -fno-math-errno -fno-trapping-math -Werror=format -Wno-dangling-reference 
> -Wno-error=dangling-reference -Wno-stringop-overflow 
> -DHAVE_AVX512_CPU_DEFINITION -DHAVE_AVX2_CPU_DEFINITION -O2 -g -DNDEBUG -fPIC 
> -fdiagnostics-color=always -DTORCH_USE_LIBUV -DCAFFE2_USE_GLOO -Wall -Wextra 
> -Wdeprecated -Wunused -Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-missing-field-initializers 
> -Wno-array-bounds -Wno-unknown-pragmas -Wno-strict-overflow 
> -Wno-strict-aliasing -Wredundant-move -Wno-interference-size 
> -Wno-maybe-uninitialized -fvisibility=hidden -fopenmp -MD -MT 
> caffe2/CMakeFiles/torch_cpu.dir/__/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp.o -MF 
> caffe2/CMakeFiles/torch_cpu.dir/__/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp.o.d -o 
> caffe2/CMakeFiles/torch_cpu.dir/__/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp.o -c 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp
>  In file included from /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:15,
>                   from 
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp:3:
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h: In instantiation of ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_exponent(int, OutputIt) [with Char = char; OutputIt = 
> std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >]’:
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2373:34:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::do_write_float(OutputIt, const DecimalFP&, const 
> fmt::v11::format_specs&, fmt::v11::sign, locale_ref) [with Char = char; 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; DecimalFP 
> = dragonbox::decimal_fp<double>; Grouping = fallback_digit_grouping<char>]’
>   2373 |       return write_exponent<Char>(output_exp, it);
>        |              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2453:57:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_float(OutputIt, const DecimalFP&, const 
> fmt::v11::format_specs&, fmt::v11::sign, locale_ref) [with Char = char; 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; DecimalFP 
> = dragonbox::decimal_fp<double>]’
>   2452 |     return do_write_float<Char, OutputIt, DecimalFP,
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   2453 |                           fallback_digit_grouping<Char>>(out, f, 
> specs, s, loc);
>        |                           
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3310:31:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_float(OutputIt, T, fmt::v11::format_specs, 
> locale_ref) [with Char = char; OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >; T = double]’
>   3310 |       return write_float<Char>(out, dec, specs, s, loc);
>        |              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3347:33:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write(OutputIt, T, fmt::v11::format_specs, locale_ref) 
> [with Char = char; OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >; T = double; typename 
> std::enable_if<std::integral_constant<bool, (std::is_floating_point<T>::value 
> || std::is_same<T, __float128>::value)>::value, int>::type <anonymous> = 0]’
>   3347 |              : write_float<Char>(out, value, specs, loc);
>        |                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3633:23:   required from ‘constexpr decltype 
> (ctx.out()) fmt::v11::detail::native_formatter<T, Char, TYPE>::format(const 
> T&, FormatContext&) const [with FormatContext = 
> fmt::v11::generic_context<std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >, char>; T = double; Char = char; 
> fmt::v11::detail::type TYPE = fmt::v11::detail::type::double_type; decltype 
> (ctx.out()) = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >]’
>   3633 |     return write<Char>(ctx.out(), val, specs_, ctx.locale());
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:220:22:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::spec_field<Char, T, N>::format(OutputIt, const Args& ...) 
> const [with OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> 
> >; Args = {double, int}; Char = char; T = double; int N = 0]’
>    220 |     return fmt.format(get_arg_checked<T, N>(args...), ctx);
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:460:19:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::format_to(OutputIt, const CompiledFormat&, const Args& ...) [with 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; 
> CompiledFormat = detail::spec_field<char, double, 0>; Args = {double, int}; 
> typename std::enable_if<detail::is_compiled_format<CompiledFormat>::value, 
> int>::type <anonymous> = 0]’
>    460 |   return cf.format(out, args...);
>        |          ~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:500:26:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::format_to(OutputIt, const S&, Args&& ...) [with OutputIt = 
> std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; S = 
> at::<lambda()>::FMT_COMPILE_STRING; Args = {double&, const int&}; typename 
> std::enable_if<detail::is_compiled_string<S>::value, int>::type <anonymous> = 
> 0]’
>    500 |     return fmt::format_to(out, compiled, 
> std::forward<Args>(args)...);
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp:159:21:
>    required from here
>    159 |       fmt::format_to(out_it, FMT_G, val, pf.width);
>        |       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1501:32: error: no matching function for call to 
> ‘format_decimal<char>(std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> 
> >&, unsigned int&, int)’
>   1501 |     return format_decimal<Char>(out, uexp, count_digits(uexp));
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    • there are 2 candidates
>      • candidate 1: ‘template<class Char, class UInt> constexpr Char* 
> fmt::v11::detail::format_decimal(Char*, UInt, int)’
>        /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1199:31:
>         1199 | FMT_CONSTEXPR FMT_INLINE auto format_decimal(Char* out, UInt 
> value,
>              |                               ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        • template argument deduction/substitution failed:
>          •   cannot convert ‘out’ (type ‘std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >’) to type ‘char*’
>            /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1501:33:
>             1501 |     return format_decimal<Char>(out, uexp, 
> count_digits(uexp));
>                  |                                 ^~~
>      • candidate 2: ‘template<class Char, class UInt, class OutputIt, 
> typename 
> std::enable_if<fmt::v11::detail::is_back_insert_iterator<OutputIt>::value, 
> int>::type <anonymous> > constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::format_decimal(OutputIt, UInt, int)’
>        /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1207:20:
>         1207 | FMT_CONSTEXPR auto format_decimal(OutputIt out, UInt value, 
> int num_digits)
>              |                    ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        • template argument deduction/substitution failed:
>  In file included from /usr/include/fmt/format.h:41:
>          • error: no type named ‘type’ in ‘struct std::enable_if<false, int>’
>            /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1206:11:
>             1206 |           
> FMT_ENABLE_IF(is_back_insert_iterator<OutputIt>::value)>
>                  |           ^~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h: In instantiation of ‘OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_significand(OutputIt, UInt, int) [with Char = char; 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; UInt = 
> long unsigned int]’:
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2429:35:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::do_write_float(OutputIt, const DecimalFP&, const 
> fmt::v11::format_specs&, fmt::v11::sign, locale_ref) [with Char = char; 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; DecimalFP 
> = dragonbox::decimal_fp<double>; Grouping = fallback_digit_grouping<char>]’
>   2429 |     return write_significand<Char>(it, significand, 
> significand_size);
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2453:57:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_float(OutputIt, const DecimalFP&, const 
> fmt::v11::format_specs&, fmt::v11::sign, locale_ref) [with Char = char; 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; DecimalFP 
> = dragonbox::decimal_fp<double>]’
>   2452 |     return do_write_float<Char, OutputIt, DecimalFP,
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   2453 |                           fallback_digit_grouping<Char>>(out, f, 
> specs, s, loc);
>        |                           
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3310:31:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write_float(OutputIt, T, fmt::v11::format_specs, 
> locale_ref) [with Char = char; OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >; T = double]’
>   3310 |       return write_float<Char>(out, dec, specs, s, loc);
>        |              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3347:33:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::write(OutputIt, T, fmt::v11::format_specs, locale_ref) 
> [with Char = char; OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >; T = double; typename 
> std::enable_if<std::integral_constant<bool, (std::is_floating_point<T>::value 
> || std::is_same<T, __float128>::value)>::value, int>::type <anonymous> = 0]’
>   3347 |              : write_float<Char>(out, value, specs, loc);
>        |                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:3633:23:   required from ‘constexpr decltype 
> (ctx.out()) fmt::v11::detail::native_formatter<T, Char, TYPE>::format(const 
> T&, FormatContext&) const [with FormatContext = 
> fmt::v11::generic_context<std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >, char>; T = double; Char = char; 
> fmt::v11::detail::type TYPE = fmt::v11::detail::type::double_type; decltype 
> (ctx.out()) = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >]’
>   3633 |     return write<Char>(ctx.out(), val, specs_, ctx.locale());
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:220:22:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::spec_field<Char, T, N>::format(OutputIt, const Args& ...) 
> const [with OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> 
> >; Args = {double, int}; Char = char; T = double; int N = 0]’
>    220 |     return fmt.format(get_arg_checked<T, N>(args...), ctx);
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:460:19:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::format_to(OutputIt, const CompiledFormat&, const Args& ...) [with 
> OutputIt = std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; 
> CompiledFormat = detail::spec_field<char, double, 0>; Args = {double, int}; 
> typename std::enable_if<detail::is_compiled_format<CompiledFormat>::value, 
> int>::type <anonymous> = 0]’
>    460 |   return cf.format(out, args...);
>        |          ~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/compile.h:500:26:   required from ‘constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::format_to(OutputIt, const S&, Args&& ...) [with OutputIt = 
> std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> >; S = 
> at::<lambda()>::FMT_COMPILE_STRING; Args = {double&, const int&}; typename 
> std::enable_if<detail::is_compiled_string<S>::value, int>::type <anonymous> = 
> 0]’
>    500 |     return fmt::format_to(out, compiled, 
> std::forward<Args>(args)...);
>        |            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  
> /build/reproducible-path/pytorch-2.12.1+dfsg/aten/src/ATen/core/Formatting.cpp:159:21:
>    required from here
>    159 |       fmt::format_to(out_it, FMT_G, val, pf.width);
>        |       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2247:30: error: no matching function for call to 
> ‘format_decimal<char>(std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, std::char_traits<char> 
> >&, long unsigned int&, int&)’
>   2247 |   return format_decimal<Char>(out, significand, significand_size);
>        |          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    • there are 2 candidates
>      • candidate 1: ‘template<class Char, class UInt> constexpr Char* 
> fmt::v11::detail::format_decimal(Char*, UInt, int)’
>        /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1199:31:
>         1199 | FMT_CONSTEXPR FMT_INLINE auto format_decimal(Char* out, UInt 
> value,
>              |                               ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        • template argument deduction/substitution failed:
>          •   cannot convert ‘out’ (type ‘std::ostreambuf_iterator<char, 
> std::char_traits<char> >’) to type ‘char*’
>            /usr/include/fmt/format.h:2247:31:
>             2247 |   return format_decimal<Char>(out, significand, 
> significand_size);
>                  |                               ^~~
>      • candidate 2: ‘template<class Char, class UInt, class OutputIt, 
> typename 
> std::enable_if<fmt::v11::detail::is_back_insert_iterator<OutputIt>::value, 
> int>::type <anonymous> > constexpr OutputIt 
> fmt::v11::detail::format_decimal(OutputIt, UInt, int)’
>        /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1207:20:
>         1207 | FMT_CONSTEXPR auto format_decimal(OutputIt out, UInt value, 
> int num_digits)
>              |                    ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        • template argument deduction/substitution failed:
>          • error: no type named ‘type’ in ‘struct std::enable_if<false, int>’
>            /usr/include/fmt/format.h:1206:11:
>             1206 |           
> FMT_ENABLE_IF(is_back_insert_iterator<OutputIt>::value)>
>                  |           ^~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> See
> https://buildd.debian.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=pytorch&arch=amd64&ver=2.12.1%2Bdfsg-1%2Bb1&stamp=1791370572&raw=0
> for details.
> 
> Cheers
> -- 
> Sebastian Ramacher
> 

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