And I'll add my 2¢ as an end user. The live images exist IMHO to test compatibility before committing to installation, and to install what was just tested and demonstrated, regardless of environment. It's a nice feature (arguably an essential feature) that the actual install mirror *exactly* the tested compatibility and appearance. To go with this, it *was* nice to be able to install in the absence of a network connection or Internet service.
The Live environment still works fine for testing for compatibility, especially when the Nonfree repository is included. Installation, no longer. My 2¢ is that installation suffers from a lack of testing, probably because Debian Live is a "unofficial" branch off the development tree. It's made worse because bugs for Live have no clear reporting process. Where DOES one report a problem - to this mailing list, or the mailing list more obviously suited (think a bug found while installing...report here, or report to debian-install, or to debian-boot)? Inquiring minds want to know! <g> Charlie On Jun 26, 2017 12:55 PM, "Michael ." <keltoi...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not a dev but I am a user and I do test so I'll add my bit here. > > Let's be frank Live Wrapper only exists because of animosity within Debian > towards the originator of Live Build (and to be honest his own lack of > concern for what Debian required of Live Build). Live Wrapper was rushed > and was never going to be ready for Stretch and in hindsight it was a > little foolish to think it would be ready to build the types of images > Debian required. Live Build wasn't up to scratch but the UEFI support issue > has been fixed so what other issues are there with Live Build that makes it > unreasonable to use? > > On 27 June 2017 at 00:08, Steve McIntyre <st...@einval.com> wrote: > >> [ Note the cross-posting... ] >> >> Hey folks, >> >> Background: we released live images for Stretch using new tooling, >> namely live-wrapper. It is better than what we had before (live-build) >> in a number of ways, particularly in terms of build reliability and >> some important new features (e.g. UEFI support). But it's also less >> mature and has seen less testing. There have been bugs because of >> that. I have fixes for most of the ones I know about [1], and I'm >> still working on more bugfixes yet. >> >> While the bugs are annoying, what worries me more is that they were >> only spotted in release builds. There had been testing versions of >> live images available for multiple weeks beforehand, presumably with >> the same bugs included. (Almost) none of them reported. This shows >> that we don't have enough people using these live images and/or caring >> about filing bugs. >> >> We have a similar lack of involvement in terms of the content of the >> live images. As I said above, I'm happy that we now have a reliable >> tool for building our live images - that makes my life much >> easier. But I honestly have no idea if the multiple desktop-specific >> live images are actually reasonable representations of each of the >> desktops. For example, I *seriously* hope that normal KDE >> installations are not effected by #865382 like our live KDE >> images. Validation by the various desktop teams would be useful here. >> >> The current situation is *not* good enough. I ended up getting >> involved in live image production because the images needed making, >> and I was already the main person organising production of Debian's >> official images. To be frank, I had (and still have) no direct use for >> the live images myself and I don't *particularly* care about them all >> that much. Despite that, I've ended up spending a lot of time working >> on them. A few other people have also spent a lot of time working in >> this area - thanks are due to those people too. But it's still not >> enough. >> >> If our live images are going to be good enough to meet the standards >> that Debian users deserve and expect, we need *consistent*, >> *sustained* involvement from a lot more people. Please tell me if >> you're going to help. If we don't see a radical improvement soon, I'll >> simply disable building live images altogether to remove the false >> promises they're making. >> >> [1] https://get.debian.org/images/release/current-live/amd64/iso >> -hybrid/#issues >> >> -- >> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. >> st...@einval.com >> "...In the UNIX world, people tend to interpret `non-technical user' >> as meaning someone who's only ever written one device driver." -- Daniel >> Pead >> > >
