Dnia 2014-04-12, sob o godzinie 15:12 +0900, Charles Plessy pisze: > Le Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:30:13AM -0700, Tyler Riddle a écrit : > > > > 2) Debian is the universal operating system. Debian Stable doesn't change. > > The Debian cloud images have been anything but stable. What is being > > released > > as Debian/Wheezy cloud images is forming into a Debian derivative with a far > > faster release cycle than anyone who is familiar with Debian Stable would be > > expecting yet the labeling is still Debian. > > Hi Tyler, > > I think that there is at least a “broad consensus” that Debian cloud images > should not behave differently than standard Debian installations. However, I > think that most if not all cloud images developed here are still in testing > phase, even if they can be quite usable and even if they are based on Debian > stable. Thus, the fast release cycle is not a design goal, it only reflects > the state of our cloud projects in general.
You are right that we are experimenting, trying to come with the best solution for the cloud images. I'm speaking here from the perspective of someone new to the cloud, although I'm active in this group and involved in development of bootstrap-vz. I even added ability to create testing and unstable images, with or without contrin and non-free sections; it was intended to help with testing CUDA-related code on the cloud. But that's my only contact with the cloud; I'm not using it in my day job, so take my words with the grain of salt. I also do not think that rejecting proposals just because they suit needs of Google, or Amazon, or Azure clouds would be wise. Please do not consider this an attack, but whether we want it or not cloud is gaining popularity, and we (as Debian, and as individual developers) need to live with it. Just as we need to live with UEFI and problems it brings to booting. I would not want for Debian as a whole to start ignoring cloud just because it is (currently) governed by large commercial entities. I felt sadness when OpenMoko died and we were left without fully free phone. I want for Debian to have its role in the cloud. At the same time I do not want for this discussion to become flame war, so I move to other aspects. Deploying to the cloud is different from deploying for physical hardware. We can make one image and use it on as many machines as you want to. But at the same time this is just an image; when you run it on the machine, apt-get upgrade to have security updates, and create image, you get different image. That's why having testing (or even unstable) images is hard. When combined with load balancing (fully automatic, like with Amazon, or something different) cloud could allow for migration of systems to newer images. I do not know whether this is possible with Amazon Load Balancer and other solutions. But this also requires having different images, one with and one without updates. Updating systems while they are running is hard, and it is not unique to Debian. PostgreSQL also has such a problem, and they try to solve it by using some connection poolers or replication. That's why it is important to have discussion how such problems are solved in different software stacks, and what can we use in Debian. I like proposal of two images; this acknowledges that people have different needs when it comes to the operating systems on the cloud. There is question of naming them and configuring, but I would like such images to require as little of configuration from the end user as possible - at least in the beginning. After user is more proficient with Debian and cloud, he/she can start experimenting. Oh, this sounds like echo of recent discussion from debian-devel about default Desktop Environments; I also remember voices about providing easy defaults, sane defaults, popular defaults, or even no defaults at all, forcing users to choose (and assume that they know what they are doing) from the very beginning. In summary - I do not believe there will be one solution; I'm for having at least two images, properly described so users know what they are using. Best regards. -- Tomasz Rybak <[email protected]> GPG/PGP key ID: 2AD5 9860 Fingerprint A481 824E 7DD3 9C0E C40A 488E C654 FB33 2AD5 9860 http://member.acm.org/~tomaszrybak -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [email protected] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [email protected] Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1397331928.4046.26.camel@saruman
