Hi Paul, June 30 2016 4:07 PM, "Paul Tagliamonte" <[email protected]> wrote: > I started replying to this mail, but I found that I really don't want > to. I'm guessing you don't want me to, either. After all, I'm just a > person. A person totally unrelated to this, who knows nothing of facts, > and will never know the facts. > > So, let me treat this mailing list like my blog, once again, and talk a > bit about something I do know a bit about - ways in which teams fail. > > So, Richard, here's what I have to say and/or think on this - > > My current job is being thrown into a large amount of dysfunction, with > a small bit of air-cover, and to work to stabilize things which are > unstable, and help to foster a culture of engineering in a place which > doesn't take well to that. > > I see a lot of things. I see a lot of good things, and I see a lot of > bad things. Often times it's not clear who's right, and frankly, it > doesn't matter, because it's not important. > > It doesn't matter if doing something way X is better or worse than way > Y when half the team is refusing to cooperate. Turns out that's a bigger > issue. > > Technical failures in 1-50 Million USD/year projects are *rarely* > technical in nature, rather, they're Social. I don't see why Debian is > any different. > > Sometimes this takes the form of experts being ignored, sometimes it > takes the form of antibodies being sent to kill good work, and sometimes > it takes the form of rules designed for one situation being > misinterpreted and applied to cases that don't sit in-line with the > principal of the rule. > > Good work often dies. People get angry. Defenses go up, and everyone > loses. People start to fight about who's violating what rules, and > suddenly everyone's at fault for all the failures everywhere. > > What's lacking in teams, generally speaking, is usually empathy. > > It's pretty easy to get that frustrated and annoyed pit of your stomach > where all you want to do is fight with someone. I get it often. I'm part > of the problem. I'm cocky, and sometimes I don't listen at all. I'm > pretty quick to blame other people, and I have a long list of > personality faults. But that's not really the point of this email. > > I'm aware of these things, and it's something I try to monitor, because > the fact is, I'm helping to shape the culture and team around me. People > will read the things I write and change their behavior. Sometimes in a > good way, sometimes in a bad way. I'm an imperfect person, so I'm going > to have an imperfect effect on things around me. > > This entire spat in this team is frustrating, and it looks very murkey. > I don't want to weigh in because I have no buisness doing so. All I know > is I get the feeling no one is *listening* to eachother. > > People don't contribute to F/OSS or Debian because they are > mean-spirited evildo-ers who want to rule the world, because frankly, > there are quicker ways to do that. People contribute because they care. > Myon cares, and you care. These are facts. > > Both of you want to make the world a better place and make Debian a > better place. This is a fact I've accepted. > > The failure here appears to be based on communication, and feelings of > hurt. This is normal. This is basically the same as every other Thursday > I've seen for the last year. > > Fealings matter, and ensuring we have a space where people don't feel > like there is a team of people undermining them is important. Even if > it's true, the *perception* is enough to cause, well, this email thread. > > I've never talked with you before, Richard, but I see you litigating and > going on the offensive. I'm guessing this is because you feel wronged by > Myon, and the larger population needs to understand this, and ensure new > contributors don't feel this way. I agree. I want to make sure no new > contributor feels this -- true or false, perception or reality. I don't > know how, but I know it's not good. I'm *with you* on that. I'm sure > Myon is *with you* on that. > > All I ask is that you empathize with eachother, and think about what the > situation looks like from their point of view. > > As a general rule, I feel that I can learn a lot about a person after > they answer the following questions: > > 1. What's your least favorite programming language, and why? > 2. Explain why people like that programming language. > > If 2. is answered with "because their dumb dumbs", I know where the > problem is. > > So, I guess my gentle invitation is for folks in Debian generally to stop and > think about the motiviations and reasoning for the things that people do > in Debian, and to not assume the problem is with other people. > > For the most part, *we* are the problem. *I* am the problem. *we* have > failed countless people, and we will continue to. Let's start there and > find common ground.
I know I said I wasn't going to reply on this chain again - but I couldn't let you give all that insight and not at least say thank you! I did make the email simply to push people to think of both sides of a 'new contributor - mentor/sponsor' relationship. I know that nobody _has_ to mentor or sponsor me at all, and I'm grateful for even as far as I have come. I do care, and I know Christoph does too. He has chatted with me prior to his last reply and we even had seemingly reconciled. When I read his reply to the email several days later I felt aggravated as his comments were points I believed we had already worked out - and that he understood where communications went sour. It looked to me like a reply that is meant to make me look a certain way - like someone simply aggravated because they weren't progressed - which isn't the case. It's not about getting advocated - it's about the belittling of others and the elitist attitudes that really don't have a place anywhere in life; let alone a Free Software Community. I felt if I stood up and posted about my aggravation to the mailing list (and mind you only to newmaint and mentors) that we might all think about these aspects a little more. Maybe it already helped, maybe it already hurt. From the couple of replies I've gotten it seems to be a bit of both. Ultimately though, I cannot put it any better than you do, on either side. Thank you for your insight Paul, its appreciated. Best regards, Richard B Winters
