Le jeudi 23 avril 2020 à 14:36:55+0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue a écrit : > Le mardi 21 avril 2020 à 15:24:02+0200, Enrico Zini a écrit : > > [Readding Pierre-Elliott to the recipient list, overquoting for context] > > Yep, I'm not on da-manager@ as I'm no DAM, and I'm not on nm@d.o either, > so please keep me in Cc. :) > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:05:46PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote: > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > Note: this is my personal opinion, not a consensus reply from the team. > > > Also, maybe other things come to mind later, but now that I'm in front > > > of the computer, I prefer to reply than leaving it for a later that can > > > be too late. Any other feedback is welcome! > > > > > > El 20/4/20 a las 20:59, Pierre-Elliott Bécue escribió: > > > > Dear WWW Team, > > > > > > > > After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the > > > > documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member > > > > Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing > > > > some changes : > > > > > > > > 1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o > > > > site currently shows > > > > 2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the > > > > official website instead of the wiki is low to nought. > > > > > > Probably in another thread (or maybe in an IRC chat some day you like), > > > but I really appreciate more details about what could we do to make > > > website sections easier to maintain (so we help other teams in similar > > > situations). > > > > > > For now, we try with: > > > * We're in git (but still carrying the bad fame from CVS times?) > > > * Maintainers only need to care about the /english folder, translators > > > will care about the rest > > > * Technically it's wml+perl but in fact it's mostly very basic HTML > > > * The team accepts contributions via almost any channel (bts, salsa, > > > mailing list...) and we're happy to provide commit permissions to > > > whoever wants to maintain pages... > > > * Questions/comments/ask for help in our IRC channel/mailing list are > > > usually replied quickly. > > > > > > You say later that you would like to keep some parts (even if minimal) > > > on the website so if we can help in any way, just tell. > > > > Good point, and I really appreciate the recent changes, to the point > > that I now feel comfortable attempting submitting patches! > > > > The thing I personally still find hard is to test my patches before > > sending them. So far I edited blind, hoping not to embarass myself and > > waste your time mistyping html tags and similar things. > > Maybe the way I phrased the thing in my original email is not the best. > What I meant is that there is a (legitimate) process to follow that > isn't really relevant to maintain the documentation about how one can > technically join the project and what are the steps. > > For the parts DAM intend to keep on the site, like who gets to decide > who becomes developer, and how one leaves/loses his status, this is > clearly a good idea to still have on the website! > > > > > 3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get, > > > > while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability > > > > of the documentation. > > > > > > Sorry, this point I didn't understand. > > Well, for someone trying to join and currently in the NM process, it's > harder to submit a patch to www team, patch that would have to > potentially be reviewed by the NM people, than to edit a wiki page. > > > > > 4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official > > > > site. > > > > > > > > We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to > > > > move that documentation to, and to clean up a bit, too, at the same > > > > time. > > [...] > > > > This is a work in progress, and although it seems reasonable to expect > > > > that > > > > we'll proceed with that or some variant, > > > > > > I'll try to have a look at the wiki pages and compare with the current > > > website pages. > > > > > > The worse part of moving the stuff to the wiki would be to lose the > > > translations, probably. Maybe most of the content would be rewritten in > > > and we would lose them anyway, but AFAIK there are more teams working > > > in translating the website than the wiki (this could be alleviated by a > > > call for translations, maybe). > > I was intending to ask aroundd if people were eager to create the > translations. > > > > In any case, if you move some parts directly without changes (certain > > > paragraphs), maybe it would be nice to leave a note for translators > > > somehow so they can copy their translation too, saving work. > > > > Effectively all of https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint was out of > > date enough to need rewriting. Pierre-Elliott did the rewrite and can > > tell if and how much text can be salvaged. > > I salvaged bits, but bits that are incorporated in other bits that are > from me, I don't know if that wouldn't be easier to translate the pages > without trying to retain these bits from the previous translations. > > > On the other hand, technical details of the NM process refer to a > > process that happens in English only, and might not benefit much from > > translation. Moving the details of the NM process to the wiki would also > > have the advantage of allowing the people who are going through the > > process to work on the documentation on the spot. For example, > > nm.debian.org pages like https://nm.debian.org/process/699/intent > > have a "Wiki help" link on top, which links to the corresponding wiki > > documentation, and if it's insufficient people can ask n...@debian.org or > > #debian-newmaint and then update the page. > > > > Translation remains a good idea, I think, for > > https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ > > which also document membership in Debian in general. I think it's > > important that that page stays on www.debian.org, as it provides an > > official description of membership workflows, which is something that we > > need together with https://nm.debian.org/members > > The wiki has a translation system through subcategories lying in each > language's namespace, so translating the pages I created would be > possible and maybe make some sense. > > > > we would like to ask you your opinion > > > > as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* > > > > pages > > > > > > I don't know which other places in Debian (documentation, packages, wiki > > > pages, policy...) the https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* are > > > mentioned, but maybe it's good to set a list of redirects that we can > > > add to the Apache configuration of the website, so people are driven to > > > the new pages. > > > We would need a bit of help from your part with that (the list of old > > > pages to delete and the corresponding new pages). > > Sure! I can create that mapping when you get the new page patch by > Enrico. > > > > and > > > > rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for > > > > the > > > > join page). > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > I'll send it in a day or so. > > > > > > > > I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with > > > > Enrico's > > > > help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks > > > > on the > > > > content, these are more than welcome! > > > > > > Feel free to create a branch under the webwml repo, if you prefer > > > > > > https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/webwml/ > > > > > > or use the BTS (www.debian.org pseudopackage), as you wish. > > > > > > Now, with my publicity team hat, I think it would be nice to publish > > > some news item (article in bits.debian.org or other) explaining the > > > move/rework so the new documentation/info pages arrive to a wider > > > audience, and reduces frustration of people trying to find the old > > > pages. Ping us at debian-publicity to coordinate that, if you find it is > > > a good idea. > > > > I like this idea! > > > > Probably it's also time for a news item about the recent single signon > > changes, and nm.debian.org UI improvements. > > I could try to write such a news, if you'd like, Enrico. > > Cheers,
Dear WWW team, I'm trying to resurect this mail I sent and the proposal of changes on the Debian website. Enrico, WWW team, would you agree to review and comment a patch I'd offer for the pages we'd like to see changed? Cheers! -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
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