Hi,None of the 3 reasons you cited preclude using hyperkitty. It addresses the
same usage patterns. I continue to see no compelling discourse specific reason
to move from hyperkitty based on the reasoning you put ogether. I also fail to
see a statistically significant improvement in your single month comparison
stats. I also have some concerns about your methodology:- Are you using
discourse-only stats for October? How were those collected?- 1/3 of your
threads were automated fedocal messages - not something people normally reply
to. Did you account for this in calculating the reply rate? If you included
these threads in reply rate calc that's inaccurate in favor of discourse. - You
haven't noted or accounted for other variables here. For instance, in September
on design-team we had 5 participants and 6 discussions. In October we had 17
participants and 13 discussions. While this thread is probably part of the
reason, October was a release month which I would expect naturally has a higher
volume and breadth of list participation. You need to at least acknowledge
this!There are other issues but thats a start.One thing I really dont
understand, for those who prefer mail clients, if discourses mailing
functionality is the type of drop in replcement it's being touted as, why do
you not set up the commops dicourse to broadcast to the list and vice versa?I
appreciate your effort in writing this up but i am sorry to say i'm simply not
convinced. ~mSent from my phone, not an iphone.
-------- Original message --------From: "Justin W. Flory" <jflo...@gmail.com>
Date: 11/6/18 7:38 AM (GMT-05:00) To: bad...@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc:
Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org> Subject: [Design-team]
Re: [badges] Fedora Badges: Switching from bad...@lists.fp.o list to Discourse?
Hi Máirín, thanks for sharing this feedback. I appreciate theperspective you
bring and I agree that for the bigger-picture problemsof engagement and
participation, it is a people-scale issue, nottechnology-scale.I am still in
favor of switching to a Discourse forum for three reasons:1. Existing core
contributors are not seeing these discussions2. Pagure is more task-driven and
is difficult to have big-picture conversations in tickets for existing Badges
workflow3. CommOps had good success in our month-long experiment in using
Discourse to improve engagement (higher avg. of replies per thread)The most
significant issue is that core contributors are missingdiscussions and threads
on the existing list. I believe oureffectiveness is limited if core
contributors are not seeingconversations and discussion. We need engagement
from core contributorsto address engagement from new participants. My original
context forproposing the switch is mostly for this reason above all
others.Second, the Badges team is ticket-driven, but these tickets are
forindividual badges. Using tickets for bigger-picture discussions isdifficult
and it gets mixed in with other Badges activity, like anurgent request for an
event badge. For someone who wishes to followalong with Badges activity now,
they watch the Pagure activity andreceive an email for every activity, which
can be a high signal-to-noiseratio. I personally feel holding a discussion on
the sustainability ofthe Badges project in a Pagure ticket is difficult and
risks beingoverlooked by those who could add to the discussion. If it is hard
forme already as a core contributor, I imagine it is doubly so for someonewho
isn't.Finally, we took the plunge in CommOps to switch from our mailing listto
Discourse. Like the Design Team, CommOps is mostly volunteer-driven.The
qualitative feedback on the Discourse switch from our team waspositive,
including ease of access (for people who have email blocked onwork networks),
older conversations (>2 weeks) were more likely to bereplied to, and we also
noted more participation in conversations frompeople who are not in our
team:https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/2018-10-31-minutes-appreciation-week-prep-f29-f30-triage-goodbye-mailing-list/626The
quantitative feedback from September 2018 (mailing list) to October2018
(Discourse) is below:* [Sep.] # of threads: 33 [¹]* [Sep.] # of unique
participants: 9* [Sep.] Avg. replies per thread: 1.12* [Oct.] # of threads: 10*
[Oct.] # of unique participants: 14* [Oct.] Avg. replies per thread: 3.1[¹] 10
threads were Fedocal reminders. Also, if a thread was startedoutside of
September and there was a single reply in September,Hyperkitty counted the
original thread and all replies as part of itscount regardless of date.
Timestamps for original threads weren't easilydisplayed so I didn't separate
them out.Combined, these reasons lead me to prefer Discourse for
bigger-picturediscussion and abstracting things outside of Pagure tickets. This
is myview. If you still feel negatively about Discourse, then I won't
pursuethis thread further. But it does make it difficult for me, and I
alsobelieve others, to participate in bigger-picture discussions aboutFedora
Badges.On 10/13/18 12:10 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:> I have a lot of concerns
about Discourse that I've shared elsewhere.> > My biggest concern here - I am
open to everyones input on the team here,> but I do not have any intention to
switch the design-team list to> Discourse which might make it difficult for new
design recruits (who> tend to participate in both as badges are a great design
task to get> started with) to follow along in two different places and I am
concerned> it would fracture our team.> > The Badges team is ticket driven.
Discussions happen in Pagure. Newbies> are oriented via the Design team new
member process and are often> pointed to the Badges Pagure queue to find an
initial task to work on.> Your observations about activity on the badge list,
Justin, evidence this.> > To move Badges to Discourse without dividing the
teams would necessarily> mean forcing design-team@ to Discourse.> I personally
am *not* ok with that.> > I understand we have a mindshare ticket about helping
recruit new> designers and I'm assuming this is the context in which this>
well-meaning suggestion is being raised. Shuffling the chairs around on> the
communications infrastructure deck isn't going to solve those> problems,
though. They are people problems and as such require people,> not technology.
It's not a technology scale issue, it's a people scale> issue.> > terezahl just
recently started as a design intern working on Fedora> design team tickets. I
have an upcoming UX design position I just got> approval for this summer that I
will be recruiting for soon. Bringing> people to the team by *literally*
bringing people to the team is how we> push through our issues IMHO. We cannot
exceed our capacity for> mentorship via technology, the same way you can't
throw laptops at a> classroom and expect to somehow push 50 students to 1
teacher through> with as meaningful and impactful an experience as 30 to 1 with
no laptops.> > Our team has been hit a few ways recently in terms of folks
being able> to have the time to show up. I can think of 5 distinct situations.
Not a> single one is due to mailing lists, IRC, etc. Nor do I think, having>
mentored a college or high school aged intern pretty much every summer> for as
long as I can remember, is there anything inherently wrong with> MLs or IRC
that means we are cutting ourselves off "from the next> generation." Today
young adults are growing up with a plethora of> platforms and negotiate
communication across and between them natively.> > I like to quote Marshall
McLuhan a lot esp wrt these specific types of> issues. "The medium is the
message."> > MLs, Discourse, whatever forums, are cool (require interactive>
engagement) media, asynchronous, primarily text-based, in our case of an>
international niche audience. A shift from one to another would not be a>
revolutionary shift, just more of the same in a different package with> the
inconvenience of migration and docs updating and archices conversion> and
hassle for little gain on top. (A revolutionary shift would be> moving to a
medium closer to the synchronous end of the spectrum, or> something more
primarily visual, or a hotter medium - less interaction,> more curation maybe
like Fedora Magazine.) So I don't see some kind of> fantastic positive shift in
communication happening.> > Note we're talking about communication mediums,
*not* apps. We primarily> deal, in Fedora, in the currency of features and tech
and platforms etc> etc. Communication channels are different environments.
Don't conflate> Discourse or Mailman the apps with Discourse or Mailman the>
communication media. I am not interested in the app-level issues, that> shifts
far too often to be worth trying to plan around.> > Switching from ML to
Discourse, the only difference that matters from a> communication medium
standpoint is that Discourse is primarily a polling> based media (as are
Twitter, FB, instagram, most timeline based social> media) and MLs are a push
based medium (the comms come to you where you> are generally.) MLs approach
poll w Hyperkitty for those who prefer> that; Discourse approaches push for
those who prefer that. But natively> Discourse is poll and MLs are push.> > For
a volunteer based organization, poll doesn't cut it. Volunteers can> have large
gaps in time between attempts / the perfect alignment of> energy and time and
intention to participate. Push is more suited to> volunteer engagement bc there
are more opptys to remind you engage that> don't rely on internal intention
alone.> > This team is primarily a volunteer-based team, unlike other teams.
This> is why my concern about Discourse for Fedora generally applies doubly so>
here.> > I am happy to talk to anyone who will listen about my concerns but am>
increasingly worried they won't matter.> > ~m> > On October 11, 2018 11:06:40
PM EDT, "Justin W. Flory"> <jflo...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Hi all,> >
Tonight, Marie and I had an in-person Badges sprint today and one of the>
things we discussed was migrating the bad...@lists.fp.o mailing list to> a
new Discourse category on discussion.fedoraproject.org
<http://discussion.fedoraproject.org>.> > CommOps and a few other
sub-projects have switched, and others like the> Fedora Council are
weighing the possibility too. We hope it might make> discussions around
Fedora Badges more visible and hopefully encourage> more people to
participate (it wasn't until Marie posted to this list> that I realized it
existed, or that I was subscribed to it).> > What do you all say? Is anyone
interested in trying this out?> > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9
Mail. Please excuse my brevity.-- Cheers,Justin W.
Floryjflory7@gmail.com_______________________________________________design-team
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