2012/5/24 Andrew Pullins <[email protected]> > Mirek, > > > It's not that much different, click home or click menu > home. Wow what a > > > pain that was I had to tap twice. > > > > > > > It is a bother, because you're not used to it. It's as if clicking the > > "Maximize" button on a window in LibreOffice gave you a menu every time, > > with one of the items in the menu being "Maximize". It's bothersome to > have > > to tap twice when in every other app you just tap once. > > > > its not not going to bother people >
Exactly (though I assume you didn't actually mean that double-negative). > > > > > First Window$ has that to. Second windows has had many many yeas to > > ingrain > > > things into users minds. These tablets have not even been out an entire > > > decade. Who knows google may even change the HIG to this new way of > > > navigating. Some apps have already adopted the Facebook menu and I > think > > > many more will and soon that will not be so alien. > > > > > > > The HIG is there for a reason -- to maintain consistency across the > > platform. Android's HIG has been released only recently and not all app > > developers have had time to adjust their UIs to it. That doesn't mean we > > should respect it. If app developers choose not to respect it, Android > > will be a mess of > > different UIs. > > > > On the Mac, all apps have menubars at the top. On Windows, they have them > > below the title bar. There are advantages to both. In order to maintain > > consistency, LibreOffice has menubars below the title bar on Windows and > at > > the top of the screen on the Mac. Think how annoying it would be if > > LibreOffice put your menus below the titlebar on the Mac when every other > > app has them at the top of the screen. > > > > this is still completely different, tablet and phone OS's have not been out > very long(this includes Android, iOS, blackberry, webOS all of them) there > is no best way to do things and things will change all the time till > everyone(not Google and apple but the app developers) decide how we are > going to do things. > No, the developers don't get to decide. They need to follow the HIG -- that's what it's for. It doesn't matter if the platform is new. Actually, if it is, then it's even more important to follow the HIG. if developers don't, it's going to be one mess of a platform. > > the iOS just stole Androids notification menu, Android just stole the > webOS's multitasking menu. Im sure that every one is taking ideas form > everyone and things are going to change. None of these change the GUI of an application. It's very likely that there aren't going to be huge HIG changes for Android coming. With Android 3 and 4, Google has invested a lot of time and effort into Android design, and the HIG is the fruit of that. > > > > Facebook once did have a home screen and it was horrible. > > > > Then they designed it badly. > > the side bar or the home screen? > The home screen. > > > Frankly, the Facebook sidebar could be easily turned into a separate > screen > > thats what I said, everything in the home screen is now in the side bar and > much, much more. > I meant that if the Facebook app removed the sliver of content on the right side of the screen, the sidebar would be a screen in its own worth. http://alexanderblom.se/images/facebook-ios.jpeg > > > http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS485&biw=1280&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=QzV68I9CPGyL6M:&imgrefurl=http://www.askdavetaylor.com/access_facebook_fan_pages_on_apple_iphone.html&docid=9curbUzGAAQTZM&imgurl=http://www.askdavetaylor.com/4-blog-pics/facebook-iphone-home-screen.png&w=320&h=480&ei=QH29T73SCMiI6AHSv7w0&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=157&sig=109770077488246810252&page=1&tbnh=128&tbnw=86&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:78&tx=39&ty=78 > > > > -- it wouldn't be that different The Google+ app has a homescreen. It's > > especially awesome on its new iOS release ( > > > http://theflickcast.com/wp-content/uploads//google-plus-ios-new.jpgcoming > > soon to Android as well). > > > > this link shows nothing? > > > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/google-mobile-app-with-sense-and-soul.html > > does the "Home" button in this picture switch to the second screen? > http://theflickcast.com/wp-content/uploads//google-plus-ios-new.jpg > > then they once again do not follow their own HIG. > The "Stream" button uses a home icon and goes to the stream. The "Up" button isn't meant to take you "Home", it's meant to take you "Up", to the parent screen. >From Google's own design guidelines: "The Up button is used to navigate within an app based on the hierarchical relationships between screens. For instance, if screen A displays a list of items, and selecting an item leads to screen B (which presents that item in more detail), then screen B should offer an Up button that returns to screen A. If a screen is the topmost one in an app (that is, the app's home), it should not present an Up button." > > > > Because of that, it's acceptable (though not ideal) that Facebook uses > > > this sidebar > > > > instead. > > > > > > I think it was the best solution. > > > > > > > However, LibreOffice does have a true homescreeen, a true overview -- > > the > > > > file manager. And that's the screen the Up button should go to. > > > > > > Are you talking about the phones back arrow or the home button? Because > > the > > > up button sounds weird. > > > > > > > http://developer.android.com/design/patterns/navigation.html > > > yes Iv seen this many many times. you post it every time we talk anything > Android. its quite confusing as well, the "Home" or "UP" button does not > always go to the HOME page. > Right. It's not the home button, it shouldn't go to the home page. It's the Up button. It should go up in hierarchy, which it always does. > > "You have the ability to make the Up behavior even smarter based on your > knowledge of detail view. Extending the Play Store example from above, > imagine the user has navigated from the last Book viewed to the details for > the Movie adaptation. In that case, Up can return to a container (Movies) > which the user hasn't previously navigated through." > > that would confuse me only every time it happens. especially seance it > would not happen much. It's not confusing once you understand the button means "Up", not "Back" or "Home". > > > > > The file manager shouldn't take any longer to load. The buttons on it > > > > should load immediately and the thumbnails of documents should load > > > > afterwards. > > > > > > Yah it shouldn't bit most likely ummm will... Even if you make it work > > the > > > way you say. > > > > > > > It will take exactly the same time to load if the thumbnails aren't > loaded > > up front. > > > > then why does it even matter. > You say that the advantage of a sidebar would be that it would load much faster than the file manager. I'm saying that it wouldn't. > > > > That's actually the worst part -- the user wouldn't know where to look > > > for > > > > his tools. > > > > If we follow the HIG, then every button has its rightful place and > the > > > user > > > > knows where to look for it. > > > > > > Ok out of all my apps on my phone only tree of them had some kind of > > > overflow menu. One being gmail witch is one of nine google > applications. > > So > > > I'm not sure how much users are used to looking in the overflow menu. > > Could > > > you tell me of some apps that you have that uses them. > > > > > > > You probably have a phone with a hardware menu button. In that case, you > > don't see the overflow menu. Or maybe you don't have Ice Cream Sandwich > > yet. > > The overflow should be present in all 9 apps from Google. > > > > I has Ice Cream Sadwich and a phone that has a hardware menu button. > That explains it, then. You're not seeing the software action overflow button because the hardware menu button launches the menu instead. > > > > > yes to get to the file browser it would take one tap of ether the > home > > > > > button or the back/up arrow and the app would still use that to > > > navigate. > > > > > but it would still take two taps and load time to get to "new" and > > > > > "templates". thats more time then two taps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, the load time would be the same. Thumbnails would load > after > > > the > > > > screen and its buttons. > > > > > > I know how this would work and I still think an application like ours > > would > > > take longer to load then you think or users want. Especially when the > > users > > > have many files. > > > > > > > It doesn't matter how many files the user has. The file list will load > > after the screen and action bars are loaded. > > > > ok what ever. > > > > > you say that these should be in the overflow menu because thats where > > > they > > > > > are on the desktop because thats where they have always been on the > > > > > desktop, but IMHO these options should not be there on the desktop. > > on > > > the > > > > > table and phone this is stupid to place them there. the split > button > > > would > > > > > also be a document menu like in your citrus UI, a place where > people > > > would > > > > > expect to find these items. when I think of tool bar I think it > > should > > > hold > > > > > things like tools to work on a new document, not things I should be > > > doing > > > > > to a finished document. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's where they belong on Android, not on the desktop. > > > > They're not in the toolbar, they're in the overflow menu, which is > > > > appropriate for actions done to a finished document. > > > > And these actions certainly don't fit in a navigation bar. > > > > > > I think I may have been thinking Bout a different overflow menu, ether > > way > > > I don't think it make much since. > > > > > > > Sorry, I don't understand this. > > > > our app has its own overflow menus in the tool bar and you say it will also > have one at the end for users that do not have the hardware menu button. What? Our action bar will have one action overflow. Its contents will change based on the selection (i.e. when you select Text, it will show text actions). > > > > > > And here they would be accessed with two taps as well. "Options" > > > belongs in > > > > > > the overflow menu as well -- two taps. > > > > > > > > > > again why should this be in the overflow menu, because its there on > > the > > > > > desktop, that is not a reason for it to be there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because it's there in every other Android app, and the user knows to > > look > > > > for it there. > > > > > > I don't know of many apps that use it so give me some examples. > > > > > > > All of the default apps, Google+, Boid, Firefox, Chrome, Google Drive, > etc. > > Take a look at the website http://holoeverywhere.com/ where a lot of > other > > apps are listed. > > > > ok, they say that this is how Facebook should have been. > > http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/095/2/9/295db2cf5d52eb63f78e7b1e0dbf1203-d4v44wc.jpg > > so here you only have Events, Photos, Friends, and Groups. where as now the > have all those AND the ability to go to News Feeds, Messages, Nearby, > Notes, a specificity group or see all groups, Apps, pages, list such as > close friends then see all, account, and help center. > > id much more prefer that then just then just the four. > > > > > why don't we need an about item. and again it should not be in the > > > overflow > > > > > menu. by this time the overflow menu (while for OVERFOW) is way > > > OVERFLOWING > > > > > and has too much in there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's why we don't need an about item -- it's an unnecessary dialog, > > and > > > > we already have too many commands. > > > > > > Ok I was thinking the toolbar overflow and the application overflow was > > the > > > same overflow witch having it there would be too many options. > > > > > > > How so? > > Remember that contextual actions would be shown as a contextual action > bar, > > and therefore contextual actions (like text formatting) and > non-contextual > > actions (search, save, print) don't mix. > > > > I miss understood what overflow you were talking about. > > > > > > > but we certainly don't want a "Close" item. > > > > > > > > > > yes we most certainly do my good friend, just hitting the home menu > > on > > > the > > > > > phone keys or back arrow a few time does not close the app, and its > > not > > > a > > > > > good thing to keep apps open useing all our users resources. when I > > > want to > > > > > close an app I want to do it in the app not some other app. also > > > another > > > > > reason this is in there is think about how you can close the > desktop > > > app. > > > > > you have clicking the "X,red circal" clicking file > Exit, and you > > have > > > > > ctrl+W or Q. there needs to be many ways to do some things. yes > some > > of > > > > > these things could just be placed in the apps menu dialog when the > > user > > > > > hits the phones menu key, but some people do not know that you can > do > > > that > > > > > all the time, some apps you can not do that all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Android, you can hit the "multitask" button (it's the third system > > > > button) to see all the running apps and swipe them away to close > them. > > > > > > > That's the standard way of doing it on Android, and that's why no > > Android > > > > application (except perhaps a few shotty ones) features a "Close" > > button. > > > > > > On my phone Pandora, two irc clients, att navigator, car panel, dock > > mobile > > > has button , pocket band, and radiou has button, all have exit menus or > > > buttons. > > > > > > > These are old designs back from times when there was no easy way to quit > > apps. It's a remain of the pre-Holo era, not something we want to follow. > > > > > > > > > > the side bar is not only a navigation tool but like the file menu > and > > > much > > > > > more. I was not sure what to place in each screen but all I was > > trying > > > to > > > > > show is that the menu is contextual depending on what screen you > are > > > in. we > > > > > would need to figure out what all belongs in there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like this sidebar would frustrate users more than if we follow > > the > > > > HIG. I still don't see a single advantage of it -- as I demonstrated, > > > > accessing its buttons would be just as slow if not slower as if we > used > > > the > > > > UI elements in the HIG. > > > > > > have you seen how fast the side menu pops out. You make it seem like > > > creating a new document would be like > > > tap...............................tap, when it would be more like > > tap..tap > > > or tap tap it the get used to it. > > > > > > > Again, opening the overview wouldn't be slower. The user would also be > used > > to the new buttons always being on the bottom of the screen, and > therefore > > could push them faster (whereas they're harder to target in the menu). > > > > how so? > A user's muscle memory will adjust to "New" buttons being on the bottom from the home screen. If the "Up" button shows a sidebar instead, the user will have to adjust to an additional placement of "New" buttons, and it will take him longer to target them. > > > > Opening a different document would be much slower. > > > > On the contrary -- this sidebar would be frustrating for users that > are > > > > used to the Android platform. > > > > > > I don't think this menu is frustrating at all. If we can get some > better > > > examples in it I think you would see the benefit. It would be more > > > beneficial when editing a document then in the manager or viewer. But > > since > > > we are one shipping these views right now that's all I did. > > > > > > I don't understand the last sentence. > > > > we are not going to have the full blown writer just a document viewer for > now. Yes. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
