Iain * wrote: > On 7/14/06, Darren Kenny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> And it worries me that this is opening a door for a slew of C# based >>>> applications into the core GNOME. >>> And this is a bad thing because...? >> I'm not totally against C# applications themselves - what I am for is >> choice. I >> don't think any thing other than C should be part of Core GNOME - to put >> anything other than C into here can cause loads of problems - > > So, by limiting choice you are attempting to promote choice?
:) In a way, yes - if we didn't have the original GNOME desktop and libraries written in C we could have had so many language bindings in the first place? How many language bindings exist for KDE that didn't first have to present a C API to enable the binding... It's important to make the right decisions to enable maximum volume - Mozilla uses C++, but in a VERY limited and strict way - this is enable it to be compiled by the majority of C++ compilers on the market and still be compatible. > >> what happens if we >> start to do all our main development in C# (or anything else for that matter) >> going forward, then less and less of GNOME will be re-usable without Mono >> since >> all the innovation will be in C#. > > All the innovation is in C# (and python...) > - Gimmie > - Deskbar > - Tomboy > - Banshee/Muine > - Jokosher > > Compare the speed that Jokosher has progressed in 4 months with the > length of time its taken me to get Marlin anywhere (about 4 years, on > and off). Yes, they have different aims and Jokosher has more people > and isn't as advanced, but I think its interesting. In fact I have > been tempted to rewrite Marlin in C#, but we'll see. You are comparing "prototyping" with product ready code - again I bring up the "how many good MS Windows apps are written in VB" - you'll find many did the UI first in VB first - to prototype it - an then changed to a MFC/C++ for the final implementations... > >> D-Bus in turn has a Python dependency - now >> while I know this is optional - it makes for a difficult argument as to how >> to >> package it, etc. > > It doesn't anymore, the bindings have been moved out, but, this is a > minor packaging issue, which as far as I can tell, both ubuntu and > maemo have managed to solve, so I'd imagine the people at Sun can do > as well. > >>> Python is already used in the deskbar applet which is in core GNOME. >> So? Again, this is where it shouldn't be - it should be in the Python GNOME >> area... > > Maybe you're missing the meanings here... > There are two current splits > - platform > - desktop > > Platform is the libraries and these are in C. Only C and don't think > that is changing anytime soon. > > Desktop is applications and some other libraries. > > Platform is "core" the stuff you can't do without > > Desktop is optional, you can install bits of it and not install other > bits. We're talking here about putting stuff into the Desktop > platform. I don't see what advantage splitting things anymore would > do. If people want application XYZ then they have to install > application XYZ. If it has dependancies they don't like, then they > don't get to use application XYZ. Yes, but there is a Core Desktop - I think we need a definition of this - could you consider a desktop running without metacity or gnome-panel or gnome-session as GNOME - I wouldn't think so. Applets are fairly core here - most people need the taskbar, the notification area, the date/time, the volume control, etc. - without these the desktop isn't very GNOME like, is it? If you aren't interested in a language split, then I think we should at least have a Core GNOME Desktop definition. > >> That sounds fine, but if we keep developing things in something other than C, >> which are more than just prototypes, then there won't be much choice left, >> will >> there? > > Thats life...if we limit stuff to C then we're not going to get > anywhere, because really, C sucks (and this is speaking as someone who > has coded in C for 13/14 years). True - it sucks for many things - but it has it's strengths too - the main one on Unix being that it's core to the whole platform, most languages support binding to it, usually right out of the box because of this... > >> Maybe on a single machine, but we, in Sun here also have to seriously >> consider >> the multi-seat machine (like Sun Ray), and I'm sure other commercial >> companies >> would be interested here too. So running lots of copies of applications that >> have their own platform, with their own "busy" idle loops (garbage >> collection) >> and so on, it becomes a major issue when there are 100 users on the one >> machine >> fighting for that tiny slice of time they might get to do some processing. > > So, yes, things need optimised and improved, no-one is arguing against > that. But, if that really is your worry, then don't install the > software you don't like. That is your choice ultimately. It only is if we can be sure that the Core Desktop isn't being overrun with non-C elements - once we start to move outside that box the choice becomes less and less and disabling things means you have very little functionality (and possibly usability) remaining. > >>>> As for .NET, even Microsoft themselves had to pull back from using it for >>>> core >>>> functionality due to performance reasons - why do we think we will do any >>>> better? >>> As someone who is running mono based applications fairly regularly, I >>> haven't noticed any major performance issues. We're not talking here >>> about replacing the core libraries with c# based ones, we're talking >>> about applications, and for me the mono based apps are just as fast as >>> the C based ones. >> Again, you're probably one user on one machine - we need to "think out side >> of >> the box on your desk". > > The claim was that "Microsoft themselves had to pull back from using > it for core functionality due to performance reasons". I don't imagine > those performance reasons were on multiuser application systems, so I > was responding within the same context. OK... But I'm sure this was also important in the multi-user context since you can be sure there will be a Vista Server version too... Darren. > > iain _______________________________________________ desktop-devel-list mailing list [email protected] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
