Hi Geertjan,
I agree. I'd be happy to move it to a different category. What would you
suggest?
Regarding your other suggestion ("POC or shut up!" đ). We're thinking about the
best way how to do a Proof Of Concept and this discussion has proven very
valuable so far as we understand better what the concerns and preferences of
the community members are. There was lots of constructive feedback and I think
we can work with that and come up with some suggestions, and if we find one at
least some of us agree to, also go to work on a POC.
Cheers
Toni
-----UrsprĂźngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Geertjan Wielenga <[email protected]>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. März 2018 09:45
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: Think Java, not Electron! was: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of
On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Jaroslav Tulach <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>
> > I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running inside
> > Electron
> recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>
> ...and trying Electron samples! C'mon do you have recent version of
> NetBeans 9.0? Then just select "New Project", "JavaFX", "Java HTML5
> Application" click through the wizard and choose Run/Debug on the
> generated project! How much did it take? 30s of activity[1]?
>
Well, you must admit that that is pretty well hidden.
You're saying the HTML/Java (or is it not HTML4J) sample is hidden inside the
JavaFX category and is named "Java HTML5 Application".
I think this is the key problem -- how well hidden this technology is.
To be honest, it took me many years to understand what the NetBeans Lookup API
was for. Eventually I understood it as a generic mechanism for decoupling,
which can be used in several different ways -- e.g., to provide a global
context and for pub/sub communication.
The problem/challenge with HTML4J is very similar -- it is a generic mechanism
and its usages take a while to understand. To help with this, you can make
really crystal clear what it is -- and the info in the README here
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j is good, but probably best
would be a library of very basic samples, i.e., the repo needs a samples folder.
Also, what would a transition from NetBeans IDE to HTML/Java API look like
-- OK, sure, we can make TopComponents that contains HTML files, via the
HTML/Java API. But how far can we go with that, can you do a POC of the
complete NetBeans IDE redone via HTML/Java API? You or Toni are the only ones
who are able to do that and you should do that or stop talking about it as a
way forward.
Thanks,
Gj
>
> > I keep trying to find some time to experiment with Apache HTML/Java
> > and
> wondered at the feasibility of reworking that Electron example with it?
>
> If you give the NetBeans 9.0 support for HTML/Java UI a try, you see
> (when using for example the Visual archetype) that rewriting visually
> rich Electron application like
> https://github.com/electron/simple-samples/tree/master/activity-monito
> r
> should be a piece of cake.
>
> I consider it patriotic to try NetBeans own solution first. Am I
> completely off?
>
> > Demo app showing all kind of features a given system allows me to use.
> Like a toolbox, which I run and say - hey that's the component I need.
> Is there something like this for the HTML+JAVA api?
>
> The visual archetype offers canvas sample, line charts and pie charts
> sample and interactive GeoBase application. Isn't that enough? Then
> there is another CRUD like archetype, as well as simple MVVM sample.
> All of them are just few clicks from your reach ("New Project",
> "JavaFX", "Java HTML5 Application"), is that enough to get started?
>
> I hope it is. Guys, please, instead of drinking your morning coffee,
> click though the wizard and see Apache HTML/Java API in action
> yourself. I'll be thankful for comments. As confessed, I am depressed
> by my inability to communicate what our HTML/Java project can do for
> you. It may not be 100% perfect fit, but it is so close to what you
> guys need.... Shame on me for not being able to explain that!
>
> Thanks.
> -js
>
> PS: Now let's look at what Electron isn't and why HTML/Java shall be a
> better choice:
>
> > I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use
> > a
> web ide.
>
> I share your feelings. However we are not talking about Web IDE. We
> are talking about reusing rendering pipeline that is behind HTML.
> Sure, this pipeline is used in browsers, but that doesn't mean browser
> == the rendering pipeline. Browser is much more and we don't need all of that.
>
> > Think about ... what Electron actually *is* ...
>
> Electron is the rendering pipeline, plus a bunch of libraries for
> dealing with the surrounding operating system, plus JavaScript
> specific build system. But, when writing Java application, why would
> you need those libraries? Java has pretty rich operating system API
> (think of java.nio, missing in JavaScript) and there are plenty of
> libraries to deal with other aspects of OS integration. Why would you
> need npm build system? Java has other, well established build systems
> as well. Conclusion? The only thing you'd want from Electron is the rendering
> pipeline.
>
> But then: What is the HTML/Java project goal? To be a portable
> abstraction over such pipeline! I would conclude that you don't want
> to look at Electron to begin with! Again, I am ashamed of not being
> able to get my message thru...
>
>
> > Funfact: Without JavaFX you don't have a HTML5 renderer
>
> The truth is that we already have our existing Swing/JavaFX
> applications and if we want to move towards HTML, we need an
> incremental way to migrate, rather than big bang rewrite of
> everything. That is not at all what Electron can give you! On the
> other hand that is something HTML/Java API shines at. Because of using
> the JavaFX renderer (behind the scene), we can easily mix the Swing and HTML
> UI in NetBeans IDE[2].
>
> In any case having the Swing/HTML UI interop is real benefit for us.
> We can mix both types of the UI right now. By having the renderer as
> an implementation detail, we can replace it with better one in the future.
>
> PPS: Have any of the above (or below) convinced you to give HTML/Java
> API a try or did I failed again to explain its benefits?
>
> [1] Plus few minutes of Maven plugins initial download time...
> [2] Have you noticed that the wizard ("New Project", "JavaFX", "Java
> HTML5
> Application") is written in HTML UI? I hope the transition from the
> Swing to the HTML UI was smooth enough to not be really noticeable.
>
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