So seven CAs could be affected by the timeline. Six of them say it is not a
problem for them, and one of them has a complaint based on another root
store. Does that CA have newer roots in Mozilla's root store? Could they
use cross-signs to achieve compatibility with the other root store?

Can we get names on these CAs? Since we are talking about a deprecation, I
don't think it is relevant to talk generically about a CA that could exist
but doesn't.

Based on the comments you quoted I can't see anything that would be of
concern to your originally proposed timeline.

Den tor. 25. aug. 2022 kl. 19.11 skrev Ben Wilson <[email protected]>:

> Corey,
>
> Here is a sampling of responses we've had from other pre-2006 root CAs
> that would be affected:
>
> "This root still supports 2 TLS subordinate CAs. One certificate expires
> in October 2024, and the other expires in July 2029. However, we can move
> off this root for TLS issuance."
>
>
>
> "We would like to wait until after the expiration of our issuing CA in
> September 2023."
>
>
>
> "Our root expires in May 2023. We started issuing TLS server certificates
> from our new root certificate in July 2019. All TLS server certificates
> issued by old root certificate have expired already."
>
>
>
> "We have already transitioned away issuance of TLS Server Certificates
> from this older root CA."
>
>
>
> "Mozilla may turn off the TLS trust bit for this root."
>
>
>
> "Our G2 root, which we use for TLS issuance since 2020, has been
> cross-signed by our G1 root."
>
>
>
> "We submitted a newer root certificate several years ago to another root
> program, and it’s still not in their distributed root store. If the root
> programs want to start motivating CAs to be more nimble and to rotate our
> roots, we need the root programs to do the same."
> Given your concerns, and as an alternative to what we previously proposed,
> what if we modified the deprecation schedule and required CAs to not issue
> new TLS certificates after the given date (unless reissuance were necessary
> under a given set of limited circumstances - TBD) and that we remove the
> websites trust bit a year later?  In other words, the CA would stop issuing
> new certificates, except e.g., emergency re-issuance, etc.; we would change
> the column heading from "Distrust After Date" to "Stop Issuance"; and a new
> column would indicate that Mozilla would submit an NSS Bug to Remove the
> <Websites / Email> Trust Bit, which would be effective approximately one
> year after the Stop-Issuance column.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 1:21 PM Ben Wilson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Corey
>> For a while now, I've been reaching out to the pre-2006 root CA
>> operators. I'll prepare a summary of what they've said regarding their
>> strategies to continue TLS certificate issuance and post it here.
>> Thanks again,
>> Ben
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 6:52 AM Corey Bonnell <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ben,
>>>
>>> The proposed update to 7.4.1 includes a table that outlines the
>>> distrust/”notBefore” dates of root certificates. For those certificates
>>> issued before 2006, there is a proposed distrust date of April 15, 2024
>>> (less than 20 months from now).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, the document then states:
>>>
>>> " It typically takes 2 to 3 years for a root certificate to get included
>>> into the major root stores. Time is also needed to complete the transition
>>> from an older hierarchy to the newer hierarchy before a CA can be
>>> distrusted for TLS.”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This section acknowledges that it takes several years to gain root
>>> ubiquity and seemingly indicates that 20 months is not sufficient time to
>>> transition. To remain consistent with this guidance, I believe the distrust
>>> table needs to be updated to provide a more generous window so CAs have
>>> time to transition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Corey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
>>> *On Behalf Of *Ben Wilson
>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 5:28 PM
>>> *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
>>> *Subject:* Proposed Updates to MRSP to Address Root CA Life Cycles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is a set of proposed policy changes for your review and comment.
>>> The full draft document, which I've pasted below, is also available here:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hqu-9OxiLiAr4gliSOCAHYpOspbsL4I-sAuwmISWqWg/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Proposed Updates to Mozilla Root Store Policy
>>>
>>> The following changes are proposed to Mozilla’s Root Store Policy
>>> <https://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/certs/policy/>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Addition to:  Section 7.1 Inclusions*
>>>
>>> CA key material MUST be generated within the three (3) years that
>>> precede the submission of a CA inclusion request. The date of CA key
>>> material generation shall be determined by reference to the auditor’s key
>>> generation ceremony report.
>>>
>>> *New Section 7.4 “Root CA Life Cycles”*
>>>
>>> Mozilla MAY limit the useful life of a CA certificate included in
>>> Mozilla’s root store to 10 years in order to encourage cryptographic
>>> agility, address advancements in computing, and facilitate the transition
>>> to better algorithms. Limiting the useful life of CA certificates is also
>>> warranted because older CA certificates generally subsist with
>>> non-conformities, having been created with (and sometimes maintained with)
>>> older technologies, policies, and practices that were overlooked as
>>> pre-existing when new requirements were introduced by this Policy or the
>>> CA/Browser Forum Baseline Requirements.
>>>
>>> *7.4.1  TLS*
>>>
>>> CA operators SHOULD anticipate that a root CA certificate included in
>>> the Mozilla root store with the websites trust bit enabled will be
>>> distrusted for TLS when its CA key material is over 15 years old.
>>>
>>> For transition purposes, CA certificates in the Mozilla root store will
>>> be distrusted for TLS according to the following schedule:
>>>
>>> Key Material Created
>>>
>>> Distrust for TLS After Date
>>>
>>> Before 2006
>>>
>>> April 15, 2024
>>>
>>> 2006-2007
>>>
>>> 18 years from creation
>>>
>>> 2008-2009
>>>
>>> 17 years from creation
>>>
>>> 2010-2011
>>>
>>> 16 years from creation
>>>
>>> After 2011
>>>
>>> 15 years from creation
>>>
>>> (In the absence of an auditor’s key generation ceremony report, Mozilla
>>> may assume that the key material was generated prior to the “Valid From”
>>> date in the root CA certificate.)
>>>
>>> CA operators MUST apply to Mozilla for inclusion of their next
>>> generation root certificate with the websites trust bit enabled at least 2
>>> years before the “Distrust for TLS After Date” above.
>>>
>>> *7.4.2  S/MIME*
>>>
>>> CA operators SHOULD anticipate that a root CA certificate included in
>>> the Mozilla root store with the email trust bit enabled will be distrusted
>>> for S/MIME when its CA key material is over 20 years old.
>>>
>>> For transition purposes, CA certificates in the Mozilla root store will
>>> be distrusted for email according to the following schedule:
>>>
>>> Key Material Created
>>>
>>> Distrust for Email After Date
>>>
>>> Before 2006
>>>
>>> April 15, 2029
>>>
>>> 2006-2007
>>>
>>> 23 years from creation
>>>
>>> 2008-2009
>>>
>>> 22 years from creation
>>>
>>> 2010-2011
>>>
>>> 21 years from creation
>>>
>>> After 2011
>>>
>>> 20 years from creation
>>>
>>> CA operators MUST apply to Mozilla for inclusion of their next
>>> generation root certificate with the email trust bit enabled at least 2
>>> years before the “Distrust for Email After Date” above.
>>> Why 15 Years for TLS?
>>>
>>> It typically takes 2 to 3 years for a root certificate to get included
>>> into the major root stores. Time is also needed to complete the transition
>>> from an older hierarchy to the newer hierarchy before a CA can be
>>> distrusted for TLS. Therefore, a 15-year term allows for approximately 10
>>> years of root CA use within the Mozilla root store.
>>> Reasons for this Change
>>>
>>> *Cryptographic Agility*
>>>
>>> Over the past decade, there have been multiple warnings that
>>> cryptographic algorithms currently in use will be vulnerable to attack by
>>> the year 2030, or sooner. Some experts believe that there is a 15% chance
>>> that RSA and ECC will be broken by 2026. While these are only predictions,
>>> by the time they’re proven, it will be too late. We need to prepare now,
>>> but the current problem is that many root CA certificates in the Mozilla
>>> root store will still be valid in 2030, and some even until 2046. When RSA
>>> and ECC root certificates are long-lived and then relied upon globally,
>>> they make it difficult to transition to something else. If one considers
>>> the historical advances we’ve made in computer processing speed over the
>>> past fifty years, the next several years will be a critically short time in
>>> which to transition. There is also the threat of practical quantum
>>> computing, which is predicted to break the security of nearly all modern
>>> public-key cryptographic systems, including the Web PKI. Even without
>>> quantum computing, cryptographic weaknesses will be discovered or there
>>> will be advances in technology supporting cryptanalysis, and it will be
>>> necessary to replace cryptographic algorithms.
>>>
>>> Currently-used algorithms like RSA and ECC will be susceptible to
>>> cracking by quantum brute force based on Shor’s algorithm, which uses a
>>> quantum computer. Global investment in quantum computing is currently in
>>> the tens of billions of dollars, and it is expected to grow by the billions
>>> over the next several years. Also, over the next several years, our
>>> widely-used public key algorithms will need to be replaced with
>>> quantum-resistant alternatives. This will be a tremendous change management
>>> effort. We need to make significant changes to the Web PKI’s
>>> infrastructure. Members of the Mozilla Community know from experience that
>>> making infrastructural changes like we’re faced with here can take time to
>>> implement. If transition from the current cryptographic solutions to
>>> quantum-resistant algorithms takes too long, then until that happens,
>>> everyone will be exposed to privacy and security risks. We all need to be
>>> proactive instead of reactive. There is too much risk not to take some
>>> action now.
>>>
>>> Cryptographic agility is the ability to replace cryptographic
>>> primitives, algorithms, and protocols efficiently at reasonable costs and
>>> with limited impact on operations. Mozilla is committed to the agile
>>> management of the root store and the timely replacement of root
>>> certificates to make the Web PKI more cryptographically agile so that we
>>> can make rapid transitions to new cryptographic primitives and algorithms.
>>> Practicing cryptographic agility now is necessary for the transition that
>>> CA operators will need to make in the future as quantum computing becomes
>>> more prevalent and as they need to implement post-quantum algorithms and
>>> other related solutions.
>>>
>>> *Old Roots and CA Hierarchies may not comply with New Requirements*
>>>
>>> It cannot be said that root key pairs and certificates created between
>>> 1998-2012 meet the CA/Browser Forum requirements and Mozilla standards that
>>> now exist. For instance, auditor-witnessed key generation on cryptographic
>>> hardware was only established unambiguously when the CA/Browser Forum
>>> adopted version 1 of the Baseline Requirements for the Issuance and
>>> Management of Publicly-Trusted Certificates.
>>> https://cabforum.org/wp-content/uploads/Baseline_Requirements_V1.pdf ,
>>> effective July 1, 2012.
>>>
>>> Root CAs created in the late 1990s and early 2000s are too old.  Many
>>> are 2048-bit RSA. Some root CAs have been sold and transferred numerous
>>> times, and they cannot provide full auditor-provided attestations
>>> concerning key generation, secure transportation, cradle-to-grave
>>> continuous key protection, and ongoing policy adherence.
>>> Background/HistoryLate 1990s - Early 2000s
>>>
>>> Back in 1998 and 1999 when some roots were created, there were very
>>> minimal requirements to be included as trust anchors in browser software.
>>> At the time, some root key pairs were even generated and stored in
>>> software. Soon, Microsoft began requiring that root keys be generated and
>>> held in hardware, and that “the CA follow appropriate technical security
>>> controls for the generation and delivery of public keys and the protection
>>> of private keys.” Specifically, “hardware crypto modules rated at FIPS
>>> 140-1 Level 2, ITSEC E3 or Common Criteria EAL4  (or higher) for CA
>>> signing key generation, storage and signing operations”.
>>> 2006 - Adoption of the Extended Validation Guidelines
>>>
>>> In October 2006, the CA/Browser Forum adopted the Extended Validation
>>> Guidelines, which contained requirements for root certificates that would
>>> be trusted for EV treatment in browsers, including that auditors witness
>>> root key generation (attend the key ceremony) and provide a key generation
>>> report.
>>> 2008 - Microsoft Technical Requirements
>>>
>>> In 2008, version 1.1 of Microsoft’s Technical Requirements stated that
>>> 2048-bit roots had to expire before 2030, but “longer expiration may be
>>> afforded to larger root key sizes.”
>>> https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/20899.windows-root-certificate-program-technical-requirements-version-1-1.aspx
>>> <https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/20899.windows-root-certificate-program-technical-requirements-version-1-1.aspxhttps:/social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/20899.windows-root-certificate-program-technical-requirements-version-1-1.aspx>
>>> 2011 - Adoption of the Baseline Requirements
>>>
>>> In November 2011, the CA/Browser Forum adopted version 1.0 of the
>>> Baseline Requirements for the Issuance and Management of SSL Certificates
>>> (BRs) with an effective date of July 1, 2012. Section 17.7 of the BRs
>>> required key generation within cryptographic modules meeting applicable
>>> technical and business requirements and that auditors witness root key
>>> generation (or examine a video-recording of the key ceremony) and provide a
>>> key generation report.  While some CAs may have been doing these practices
>>> before the adoption of the BRs, there is no publicly maintained evidentiary
>>> documentation or other assurance that such is the case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> .
>>>
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