-----Mensagem original-----
De: J Aaron Farr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> A fork will not solve the avalon-meta problems either.  

No, it wont. But seems to me that a fork will be a big step towards
different solutions. Solutions that probably me and Berin and you and the
rest of people will discuss and finally agree with a lowest common
denominator. It won't be Avalon anymore, only one more container but with a
heathiful community.


> However a seperate TLP
> for either Fortress or Merlin will at least ensure the projects are not
killed
> off and that users are appropriately supported.


This _can_ be done throught subprojects.


> I feel that keeping both in Avalon would be much better but we've tried
and it
> just consistently isn't working.  


Aaron, why it isn't working? I know your answer. So instead of focus on the
symptons, why can't we  attack the causes? 

I hate to say that... There is a plenty of people here that I admire. Very
skilled in a techincal aspect, but still have a lot to learn about living
and working with a community/team. People should persuing a common goal,
instead of pushing their own goals towards others. This kind of attitute
just made Avalon emptier.

> We are looking for a "WIN/WIN" solution 

No, we're not. I don't think Fortress is competing with Merlin or
vice-versa. And if it is, we should review that, in both sides. As people is
tired of knowing: Fortress and Merlin targets very different scenarios. They
both are great and they both sucks for a specific requirement. So instead of
building a sweden knife let them be what they are. Merlin will rock in its
world, enterprise world, server world. Niclas can still pursing a solution
for component interop in every aspect on earth. Its ok, he should because he
believes that.

On the other hand there is people that won't need such a monster. Only a
simple container to embedded and run his components. No complex Meta,
repository, big spec of components/container semantics and behaviors, rigid
rules. 

Will this two worlds interop some day? Maybe. We can share this dream, but
only if it makes sense. Only if there is a proven necessity for that. Then
we can find a common ground that both fortress and merlin divide. Not
imposing ideas to each other.

> Hammett, what then is the real problem that I am missing?  What is your
solution
> to the situation?

The problem is not technical. We're all good devs, but we must learn more
about community and respect. 
So the problem is social. We need to share a view of what avalon is about. I
know what Avalon is for me and I'm sure that my definition is very different
from Niclas, for instance. No problem we can be both right and wrong.

If Avalon can't live with two subprojects that envolves in different
directions, the project needs to get booted. Or maybe boot people that is
stopping us from being a heathful community. I know its sounds terrible, but
I just can't see another solution. Creating TLP for everyone won't solve the
problem while we still can't learn to live together.



Ok, now you can shoot me ;-)
hammett


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