Hi, Over 800 usages under java, might be worth doing a few PR...
Also suggest we use a very light review process: First round go for low hanging fruit, if anyone does a -1 against a change then we leave that for round two. Thoughts? Cheers Reza On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 12:05, Kenneth Knowles <k...@apache.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:05 PM Reza Rokni <r...@google.com> wrote: > >> "Many APIs that have been in place for years and are used by most Beam >> users are still marked Experimental." >> >> Should there be a formal process in place to start 'graduating' features >> out of @Experimental? Perhaps even target an up coming release with a PR to >> remove the annotation from well established API's? >> > > Good idea. I think a PR like this would be an opportunity to discuss > whether the feature is non-experimental. Probably many of them are ready. > It would help to address Ismael's very good point that this new practice > could make users think the old Experimental stuff is not experimental. > Maybe it is true that it is not really still Experimental. > > Kenn > > > >> On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 06:44, Reuven Lax <re...@google.com> wrote: >> >>> We generally use Experimental for two different things, which leads to >>> confusion. >>> 1. Features that work stably, but where we think we might still make >>> some changes to the API. >>> 2. New features that we think might not yet be stable. >>> >>> This dual usage leads to a lot of confusion IMO. The fact that we tend >>> to forget to remove the @Experimental tag also makes it somewhat useless. >>> Many APIs that have been in place for years and are used by most Beam users >>> are still marked Experimental. >>> >>> Reuven >>> >>> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 2:16 PM Ismaël Mejía <ieme...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> > Personally, I think that it is good that moving from experimental to >>>> non-experimental is a breaking change in the dependency - one has >>>> backwards-incompatible changes and the other does not. If artifacts had >>>> separate versioning we could use 0.x for this. >>>> >>>> In theory it seems so, but in practice it is an annoyance to an end >>>> user that already took the ‘risk’ of using an experimental feature. >>>> Awareness is probably not the most important reason to break existing >>>> code (even if it could be easily fixed). The alternative of doing this >>>> with version numbers at least seems less impacting but can be >>>> confusing. >>>> >>>> > But biggest motivation for me are these: >>>> > >>>> > - using experimental features should be opt-in >>>> > - should be impossible to use an experimental feature without >>>> knowing it (so "opt-in" to a normal-looking feature is not enough) >>>> > - developers of an experimental feature should be motivated to >>>> "graduate" it >>>> >>>> The fundamental problem of this approach is inconsistency with our >>>> present/past. So far we have ‘Experimental’ features everywhere. So >>>> suddenly becoming opt-in let us in an inconsistent state. For example >>>> all IOs are marked internally as Experimental but not at the level of >>>> directories/artifacts. Adding this suffix in a new IO apart of adding >>>> fear of use to the end users may also give the fake impression that >>>> the older ones not explicitly marked are not experimental. >>>> >>>> What will be the state for example in the case of runner modules that >>>> contain both mature and well tested runners like old Flink and Spark >>>> runners vs the more experimental new translations for Portability, >>>> again more confusion. >>>> >>>> > FWIW I don't think "experimental" should be viewed as a bad thing. It >>>> just means you are able to make backwards-incompatible changes, and that >>>> users should be aware that they will need to adjust APIs (probably only a >>>> little) with new releases. Most software is not very good until it has been >>>> around for a long time, and in my experience the problem is missing the >>>> mark on abstractions, so backwards compatibility *must* be broken to >>>> achieve quality. Freezing it early dooms it to never achieving high >>>> quality. I know of projects where the users explicitly requested that the >>>> developers not freeze the API but instead prioritize speed and quality. >>>> >>>> I agree 100% on the arguments, but let’s think in the reverse terms, >>>> highlighting lack of maturity can play against the intended goal of >>>> use and adoption even if for a noble reason. It is basic priming 101 >>>> [1]. >>>> >>>> > Maybe the word is just too negative-sounding? Alternatives might be >>>> "unstable" or "incubating". >>>> >>>> Yes! “experimental” should not be viewed as a bad thing unless you are >>>> a company that has less resources and is trying to protect its >>>> investment so in that case they may doubt to use it. In this case >>>> probably incubating is a better term because it has less of the >>>> ‘tentative’ dimension associated with Experimental. >>>> >>>> > Now, for the Jet runner, most runners sit on a branch for a while, >>>> not being released at all, and move to master as their "graduation". I >>>> think releasing under an "experimental" name is an improvement, making it >>>> available to users to try out. But we probably should have discussed before >>>> doing something different than all the other runners. >>>> >>>> There is something I don’t get in the case of Jet runner. From the >>>> discussion in this thread it seems it has everything required to not >>>> be ‘experimental’. It passes ValidatesRunner and can even run Nexmark >>>> that’s more that some runners already merged in master, so I still >>>> don’t get why we want to give it a different connotation. >>>> >>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology) >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 4:43 AM Kenneth Knowles <k...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Personally, I think that it is good that moving from experimental to >>>> non-experimental is a breaking change in the dependency - one has >>>> backwards-incompatible changes and the other does not. If artifacts had >>>> separate versioning we could use 0.x for this. >>>> > >>>> > But biggest motivation for me are these: >>>> > >>>> > - using experimental features should be opt-in >>>> > - should be impossible to use an experimental feature without >>>> knowing it (so "opt-in" to a normal-looking feature is not enough) >>>> > - developers of an experimental feature should be motivated to >>>> "graduate" it >>>> > >>>> > So I think a user of an experimental feature should have to actually >>>> type the word "experimental" either on the command line or in their >>>> dependencies. That's just my opinion. In the thread [1] myself and Robert >>>> were the ones that went in this direction of opt-in. But it was mostly lazy >>>> consensus, plus the review on the pull request, that got us to this state. >>>> Definitely worth discussing more. >>>> > >>>> > FWIW I don't think "experimental" should be viewed as a bad thing. It >>>> just means you are able to make backwards-incompatible changes, and that >>>> users should be aware that they will need to adjust APIs (probably only a >>>> little) with new releases. Most software is not very good until it has been >>>> around for a long time, and in my experience the problem is missing the >>>> mark on abstractions, so backwards compatibility *must* be broken to >>>> achieve quality. Freezing it early dooms it to never achieving high >>>> quality. I know of projects where the users explicitly requested that the >>>> developers not freeze the API but instead prioritize speed and quality. >>>> > >>>> > Maybe the word is just too negative-sounding? Alternatives might be >>>> "unstable" or "incubating". >>>> > >>>> > Now, for the Jet runner, most runners sit on a branch for a while, >>>> not being released at all, and move to master as their "graduation". I >>>> think releasing under an "experimental" name is an improvement, making it >>>> available to users to try out. But we probably should have discussed before >>>> doing something different than all the other runners. >>>> > >>>> > Kenn >>>> > >>>> > [1] >>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/302bd51c77feb5c9ce39882316d391535a0fc92e7608a623d9139160@%3Cdev.beam.apache.org%3E >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:03 AM Ismaël Mejía <ieme...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Including the experimental suffix in artifact names is not a good >>>> idea >>>> >> either because once we decide that it is not experimantal anymore >>>> this >>>> >> will be a breaking change for users who will need then to update its >>>> >> dependencies code. Also it is error-prone to use different mappings >>>> >> for directories and artifacts (even if possible). >>>> >> >>>> >> May we reconsider this Kenn? I understand the motivation but I hardly >>>> >> see this making things better or more clear. Any runner user will end >>>> >> up reading the runner documentation and capability matrix so he will >>>> >> catch the current status that way. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 8:35 AM Jozsef Bartok <jo...@hazelcast.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I missed Ken's input when writing my previous mail. Sorry. >>>> >> > So, to recap: I should remove "experimental" from any directory >>>> names, but find an other way of configuring the artifact so that it still >>>> has "experimental" in it's name. >>>> >> > Right? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 9:32 AM Jozsef Bartok <jo...@hazelcast.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Yes, I'll gladly fix it, we aren't particularly keen to be >>>> labeled as experimental either.. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Btw. initially the "experimental" word was only in the Gradle >>>> module name, but then there was some change >>>> >> >> ([BEAM-4046] decouple gradle project names and maven artifact ids >>>> - 4/2/19) which kind of ended up >>>> >> >> putting it in the directory name. Maybe I should have merged with >>>> that differently, but this is how >>>> >> >> it seemed consistent. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Anyways, will fix it in my next PR. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:53 PM Ismaël Mejía <ieme...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I see thanks Jozsef, marking things as Experimental was >>>> discussed but >>>> >> >>> we never agreed on doing this at the directory level. We can >>>> cover the >>>> >> >>> same ground by putting an annotation in the classes (in >>>> particular the >>>> >> >>> JetRunner and JetPipelineOptions classes which are the real >>>> public >>>> >> >>> interface, or in the documentation (in particular website), I do >>>> not >>>> >> >>> see how putting this in the directory name helps and if so we >>>> may need >>>> >> >>> to put this in many other directories which is far from ideal. >>>> Any >>>> >> >>> chance this can be fixed (jet-experimental -> jet) ? >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 9:08 AM Jozsef Bartok < >>>> jo...@hazelcast.com> wrote: >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > Hi Ismaël! >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > Quoting Kenn (from PR-8410): "We discussed on list that it >>>> would be better to have new things always start as experimental in a way >>>> that clearly distinguishes them from the core." >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > Rgds >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:44 PM Ismaël Mejía < >>>> ieme...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> I saw that the runner was merged but I don’t get why the >>>> foler is >>>> >> >>> >> called ‘runners/jet experimental’ and not simply >>>> ‘runners/jet’. Is it >>>> >> >>> >> because the runner does not pass ValidatesRunner? Or because >>>> the >>>> >> >>> >> contributors are few? I don’t really see any reason behind >>>> this >>>> >> >>> >> suffix. And even if the status is not mature that’s not >>>> different from >>>> >> >>> >> other already merged runners. >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:43 PM Kenneth Knowles < >>>> k...@apache.org> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> > Nice! That is *way* more than the PR I was looking for. I >>>> just meant that you could update the website/ directory. It is fine to keep >>>> the runner in your own repository if you want. >>>> >> >>> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> > But I think it is great if you want to contribute it to >>>> Apache Beam (hence donate it to the Apache Software Foundation). The >>>> benefits include: low-latency testing, free updates when someone does a >>>> refactor. Things to consider are: subject to ASF / Beam governance, PMC, >>>> commiters, subject to Beam's release cadence (and we might exclude from >>>> Beam releases for a little bit). Typically, we have kept runners on a >>>> branch until they are somewhat stable. I don't feel strongly about this for >>>> disjoint codebases that can easily be excluded from releases. We might want >>>> to suffix `-experimental` to the artifacts for some time. >>>> >> >>> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> > I commented on the PR about the necessary i.p. clearance >>>> steps. >>>> >> >>> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> > Kenn >>>> >> >>> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 3:59 AM jo...@hazelcast.com < >>>> jo...@hazelcast.com> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> Hi Kenn. >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> It took me a while to migrate our code to the Beam repo, >>>> but I finally have been able to create the Pull Request you asked for, this >>>> is it: https://github.com/apache/beam/pull/8410 >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> Looking forward to your feedback! >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> Best regards, >>>> >> >>> >> >> Jozsef >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> On 2019/04/19 20:52:42, Kenneth Knowles <k...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >> >> > The ValidatesRunner tests are the best source we have >>>> for knowing the >>>> >> >>> >> >> > capabilities of a runner. Are there instructions for >>>> running the tests? >>>> >> >>> >> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Assuming we can check it out, then just open a PR to the >>>> website with the >>>> >> >>> >> >> > current capabilities and caveats. Since it is a big deal >>>> and could use lots >>>> >> >>> >> >> > of eyes, I would share the PR link on this thread. >>>> >> >>> >> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Kenn >>>> >> >>> >> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:53 AM Jozsef Bartok < >>>> jo...@hazelcast.com> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >> >> > >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > Hi. We at Hazelcast Jet have been working for a while >>>> now to implement a >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > Java Beam Runner (non-portable) based on Hazelcast Jet >>>> ( >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > https://jet.hazelcast.org/). The process is still >>>> ongoing ( >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > https://github.com/hazelcast/hazelcast-jet-beam-runner), >>>> but we are >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > aiming for a fully functional, reliable Runner which >>>> can proudly join the >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > Capability Matrix. For that purpose I would like to >>>> ask what’s your process >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > of validating runners? We are already running the >>>> @ValidatesRunner tests >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > and the Nexmark test suite, but beyond that what other >>>> steps do we need to >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > take to get our Runner to the level it needs to be at? >>>> >> >>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >>> >> >> > >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> This email may be confidential and privileged. 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