Sorry for late answer. The issue here is that once we have a communication channel, users expect answers on it. Python SDK is getting momentum and we need to serve users where they are (as mentioned by others above).
One strong advantage of 'real-time' communication (Slack/IRC) is that it is better suited for collaboration, and to create community bonds, think for example of how many people who answered a question you were looking for at stackoverflow you can remember by their 'name', versus the people with whom you have interacted in a short conversation in an IRC-like channel. I mention this because this is a way to make users welcomed and many times a first step towards contribution (for example the 'would you be willing to add this to the docs case'). StackOverflow is probably the most 'scalable' system because of many aspects like being indexed in a better way by search engines helping future users to find answers quickly, but it is also not perfect, the reputation system is basically elitist against casual people answering questions. In any case there is value in encouraging moving some answers from Slack to SO, but there is also value in improving our own website docs so this should probably be done case by case. A first approach is probably to document (and recommend) to users that if they don't get their questions answered in slack to better ask in SO or the user mailing list. I personally think there is value in getting more people involved in 'real-time' communications. Of course this is probably not for everyone, I understand that people may not want to do this to avoid being interrupted or for other reasons, but this is a trade-off to pay not only to help people but eventually to grow the community as in the go-lang case Robert mentioned so it is probably worth considering. On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:27 AM Robert Burke <rob...@frantil.com> wrote: > > For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably the > best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for open > Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if they're > pointed out to me > > As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with > community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg. > I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question > even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone. > On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low > enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward > to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko <aromanenko....@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Pablo, thank you for raising this question. >> >> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on Java >> SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack is not >> very effective for this. >> There are several reasons for that: >> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not happening all >> the time, especially, for not evident questions where you need some time to >> provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its role in terms of >> reaction time. >> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could be >> messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes >> difficult to follow. >> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link with >> already answered question. >> >> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions but >> not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support thing. >> IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to them to >> choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep track of non >> answered questions there and do our best to minimise this number. >> >> >> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver <kcwea...@google.com> wrote: >> >> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned >> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the >> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include >> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO. We >> should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python channels, >> which currently don't have any topic. >> >> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib | kcwea...@google.com >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada <pabl...@google.com> wrote: >>> >>> +Ismaël Mejía can you share your impressions from Slack? Do you think >>> Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there? >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet users >>>> where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising is >>>> that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python >>>> questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can >>>> answer them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in >>>> Slack chat rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform >>>> might improve the situation. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett >>>> <whatwouldausti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open >>>>> source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too. Though what it >>>>> could be is different from how currently used. There are 173 accounts in >>>>> #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick >>>>> glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be >>>>> pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...) >>>>> >>>>> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that is >>>>> from a community standpoint. If people are metrics focused, that might >>>>> be harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those >>>>> that have benchmarks to hit. I am willing to dig into Slack's API if >>>>> desired, to surface/forward messages as useful. Not sure how all that >>>>> would look, open to figure it out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python >>>>>> questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find >>>>>> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference. The >>>>>> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list >>>>>> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. >>>>>> How are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML? >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the >>>>>> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to >>>>>> interact rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ahmet >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles <k...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python >>>>>>> users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a >>>>>>> lot of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to >>>>>>> other channels the user might try next. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kenn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw <rober...@google.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its >>>>>>>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users >>>>>>>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the >>>>>>>> resolution is brought back to SO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri <eh...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the >>>>>>>> > advantage of being an informal space. >>>>>>>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the >>>>>>>> > others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can >>>>>>>> > only post comments or answers). >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada <pabl...@google.com> >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Hello all, >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> THE SITUATION: >>>>>>>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack >>>>>>>> >> are not getting much support, because most of the Beam >>>>>>>> >> Python-knowledgeable people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the >>>>>>>> >> Beam site, we do refer people to Slack for assistance[1]. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough >>>>>>>> >> Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are >>>>>>>> >> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our >>>>>>>> >> best to answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS: >>>>>>>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam? >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go >>>>>>>> >> to StackOverflow >>>>>>>> >> - something else? >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's >>>>>>>> >> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> WHAT I PROPOSE: >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow >>>>>>>> >> first will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less >>>>>>>> >> intimidating than the mailing list. We can add that they can try >>>>>>>> >> Slack as well - without any guarantees. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> What do others think? >>>>>>>> >> -P. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ >>>>>>>> >> [2] >>>>>>>> >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest >> >>
