OK, tweeted the message. Could you share on Slack? On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 4:28 PM Valentyn Tymofieiev <valen...@google.com> wrote:
> Alright, let's publish the message on Twitter and echo on Slack once > that's done. > Thank you! > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:31 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: > >> That sounds reasonable to me. I agree, it is better to get specific >> reasons rather than a yes/no answer. >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:50 PM Valentyn Tymofieiev <valen...@google.com> >> wrote: >> >>> After thinking about it for a bit, I am not sure whether a poll would be >>> actionable. For example, if 1000 users provide a positive response and 5 >>> users provide a negative response, how do we interpret that and where do >>> we draw a line? How about instead we encourage users to reach out, and tell >>> what is not working for them? For example: >>> >>> Beam is considering making 2.23.0 a final release supporting Py2. If you >>> are not able to switch to Python 3, please let us know why: [short link to >>> user@ thread] [1]. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> [1] >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r0de71d98d98b213dd1d0c45c1f5642135116f25def5637a5f41c8d29%40%3Cuser.beam.apache.org%3E >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:50 AM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:38 AM Valentyn Tymofieiev < >>>> valen...@google.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have reached out to user@ for feedback on Python 3 migration[1]. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe also ask on slack? There are quite a bit of users there as well. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Could somebody from PMC please help with Twitter poll? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I can try to do this. What question would you like to ask? I do not >>>> know much about twitter polls but I assume they have character limits >>>> similar to regular tweets. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Technically, we can proceed with the change between 2.23.0 and 2.24.0, >>>>> so that's after 2.23.0 is cut and we give sufficient time for users to >>>>> respond. >>>>> >>>>> [1] >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r0de71d98d98b213dd1d0c45c1f5642135116f25def5637a5f41c8d29%40%3Cuser.beam.apache.org%3E >>>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:22 AM Ismaël Mejía <ieme...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes we need to poll this outside as Robert proposed. >>>>>> >>>>>> The proposed last support version corresponds with the next release >>>>>> that will be >>>>>> cut in two weeks. Sounds a bit short if we count the time to poll >>>>>> people on this >>>>>> subject but still could be. >>>>> >>>>> Technically, we can proceed with the change between 2.23.0 and 2.24.0, >>>>> so that's after 2.23.0 is cut and we give sufficient time for users to >>>>> respond. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I remember Chad mentioned in this thread the impossibility to get >>>>>> support for >>>>>> python 2 in his industry until the end of the year, Maybe things have >>>>>> improved. >>>>>> Have they? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:10 PM Robert Bradshaw <rober...@google.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I like that option as a concrete proposal. I think we should >>>>>> circulate it more widely (the users list, twitter poll, at least a new >>>>>> thread...), maybe phrasing it as "is there any reason you couldn't >>>>>> migrate >>>>>> to Python 3 (or stick with an older version of Beam) after 2.23 (due to >>>>>> be >>>>>> cut here in a couple of weeks)?" If there is strong concern/pushback, we >>>>>> could consider holding on for one more release. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:54 AM David Cavazos <dcava...@google.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> +1 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:52 PM Udi Meiri <eh...@google.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> +1 >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 4:27 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> As a concrete proposal, could we commit to removing python 2 >>>>>> support by 2.24? In other words, mark the next release 2.23 as the last >>>>>> python 2 compatible Beam version. >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:09 PM Valentyn Tymofieiev < >>>>>> valen...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Another input here: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> If you opened a Python PR in the last few days, you probably >>>>>> noticed that our test suites were broken by a transitive dependency of >>>>>> Beam >>>>>> that dropped python 2 support, but did not declare python_requires>=3 in >>>>>> its setup.py [1]. This temporarily broke a subset of Beam Py2 users (who >>>>>> did not explicitly pin the 'rsa' dependency), and still affects Beam >>>>>> development[2]. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> This is the second time[3] Beam is affected with an issue of >>>>>> this kind, so support of Python 2 starts to slow down our development, >>>>>> and >>>>>> add toil for maintainers of packages we depend on (both directly and >>>>>> transitively). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> [1] https://github.com/sybrenstuvel/python-rsa/issues/152 >>>>>> >>>>> [2] >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r9993b40b0c1cb8682ce56013165d4b80fdde0ee469a73bcb9466ddfb%40%3Cdev.beam.apache.org%3E >>>>>> >>>>> [3] https://github.com/hamcrest/PyHamcrest/issues/131 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:06 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for re-opening this Valentyn. I am in favor of >>>>>> EOLing py2 support sooner than later. The reality is that we will not be >>>>>> effectively supporting beam python 2 for a long time while the ecosystem >>>>>> already EOLed python 2. That said, a significant chunk (but no longer a >>>>>> majority) of our users are still using python 2. Upgrades are painful, it >>>>>> might be especially painful nowadays. It would be good to hear counter >>>>>> view >>>>>> points, user voices related to this. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:53 PM Valentyn Tymofieiev < >>>>>> valen...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Back at the end of February we decided to revisit this >>>>>> conversation in 3 months. Do folks on this thread have any new input or >>>>>> perspective regarding us balancing "user pain/contributor pain/our >>>>>> ability >>>>>> to continuously test with python 2 in a shifting environment"? >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Some new information on my end is that we have been seeing >>>>>> steady adoption of Python 3 among Beam Python users in Dataflow, >>>>>> particularly strong adoption among streaming users, and Dataflow is >>>>>> sunsetting Python 2 support for all released Beam SDKs later this year >>>>>> [1]. >>>>>> We will have to remove Python 2 Beam test suites that use Dataflow when >>>>>> Dataflow runner disables Py2 support if this happens before Beam Py2 EOL >>>>>> (when we have to remove all Py2 suites), including performance tests that >>>>>> still use Dataflow on Python 3. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am curious how much motivation there is in the community at >>>>>> this moment to continue Py2 support in Beam, whether any previous Py3 >>>>>> migration blockers were resolved or any new blockers discovered among >>>>>> Beam >>>>>> users. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] >>>>>> https://cloud.google.com/python/docs/python2-sunset/#dataflow >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 3:52 PM Valentyn Tymofieiev < >>>>>> valen...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's good news! Thanks for sharing. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another datapoint, here are a few of Beam's dependencies >>>>>> that no longer release new py2 artifacts (I looked at REQUIRED_PACKAGES + >>>>>> aws, gcp, and interactive extras): >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> hdfs >>>>>> >>>>>>>> numpy >>>>>> >>>>>>>> pyarrow >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ipython >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are more if we include transitive dependencies and >>>>>> test-only packages. I also remember encountering one issue last month >>>>>> that >>>>>> was broken only on Py2, which we had to go back and fix. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> If others have noticed frictions related to ongoing Py2 >>>>>> support or have updates on previously mentioned Py3 migration blockers, >>>>>> feel free to post them. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 9:19 AM Robert Bradshaw < >>>>>> rober...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It hasn't been 3 months yet, but I wanted to call out a >>>>>> milestone that >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Python 3 downloads crossed the 50% threshold on pypi, if >>>>>> just briefly. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:40 AM Ismaël Mejía < >>>>>> ieme...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > > I would suggest re-evaluating this within the next 3 >>>>>> months again. We need to balance between user pain/contributor pain/our >>>>>> ability to continuously test with python 2 in a shifting environment. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Good idea for the in 3 months evaluation, at that point >>>>>> also distributions will probably be phasing out python2 by default which >>>>>> definitely help in this direction. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Thanks for updating the roadmap Ahmet >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 2:49 AM Ahmet Altay < >>>>>> al...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:29 AM Ismaël Mejía < >>>>>> ieme...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> I am with Chad on this, we should probably extend it a >>>>>> bit more, even if it >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> makes us struggle a bit at least we have some >>>>>> workarounds as Robert suggests, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> and as Chad said there are still many people playing >>>>>> the python 3 catchup game, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> so worth to support those users. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> But maybe it is worth to evaluate the current state >>>>>> later in the year. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> I would suggest re-evaluating this within the next 3 >>>>>> months again. We need to balance between user pain/contributor pain/our >>>>>> ability to continuously test with python 2 in a shifting environment. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> In the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> meantime can someone please update our Roadmap in the >>>>>> website with this info and >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> where we are with Python 3 support (it looks not up to >>>>>> date). >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> https://beam.apache.org/roadmap/ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> I made a minor change to update that page ( >>>>>> https://github.com/apache/beam/pull/10848). A more comprehensive >>>>>> update to that page and linked ( >>>>>> https://beam.apache.org/roadmap/python-sdk/#python-3-support) would >>>>>> still be welcome. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> - Ismaël >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 10:49 PM Robert Bradshaw < >>>>>> rober...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 12:12 PM Chad Dombrova < >>>>>> chad...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> Not to mention that all the nice work for the type >>>>>> hints will have to be redone in the for 3.x. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > Note that there's a tool for automatically >>>>>> converting type comments to annotations: >>>>>> https://github.com/ilevkivskyi/com2ann >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > So don't let that part bother you. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> +1, I wouldn't worry about what can be easily >>>>>> automated. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > I'm curious what other features you'd like to be >>>>>> using in the Beam source that you cannot now. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> I hit things occasionally, e.g. I just ran into >>>>>> wanting keyword-only >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> arguments the other day. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> It seems the faster we drop support the better. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> > I've already gone over my position on this, but a >>>>>> refresher for those who care: some of the key vendors that support my >>>>>> industry will not offer python3-compatible versions of their software >>>>>> until >>>>>> the 4th quarter of 2020. If Beam switches to python3-only before that >>>>>> point we may be forced to stop contributing features (note: I'm the guy >>>>>> who >>>>>> added the type hints :). Every month you can give us would be greatly >>>>>> appreciated. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> As another data point, we're still 80/20 on Py2/Py3 >>>>>> for downloads at >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> PyPi [1] (which I've heard should be taken with a >>>>>> grain of salt, but >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> likely isn't totally off). IMHO that ratio needs to be >>>>>> way higher for >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> Python 3 to consider dropping Python 2. It's pretty >>>>>> noisy, but say it >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> doubles every 3 months that would put us at least >>>>>> mid-year before we >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> hit a cross-over point. On the other hand Q4 2020 is >>>>>> probably a >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> stretch. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> We could consider whether it needs to be an >>>>>> all-or-nothing thing as >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> well. E.g. perhaps some features could be Python 3 >>>>>> only sooner than >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> the whole codebase. (This would have to be well >>>>>> justified.) Another >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> mitigation is that it is possible to mix Python 2 and >>>>>> Python 3 in the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> same pipeline with portability, so if there's a >>>>>> library that you need >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> for one DoFn it doesn't mean you have to hold back >>>>>> your whole >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> pipeline. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> - Robert >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> [1] https://pypistats.org/packages/apache-beam , and >>>>>> that 20% may just >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> be a spike. >>>>>> >>>>>
