I am glad more people joined and expressed their opinions after my last e-mail. It seems to me that there is a consensus in having it fixed directly in NTS and make it little bit more smart about the replica placement but we should still have a way how to do it "the old way".
There is a lot of time until 5.0. So, I would say, lets explore this "all logic in NTS" approach. I agree having new strategy and trying to explain to people what is the difference is quite confusing if everybody is pretty much used to NTS already. ________________________________________ From: Jeremiah D Jordan <jerem...@datastax.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 19:31 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Subject: Re: Degradation of availability when using NTS and RF > number of racks NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Right, why I said we should make NTS do the right thing, rather than throwing a warning. Doing the right thing, and not getting a warning, is the best behavior. On Mar 7, 2023, at 11:12 AM, Derek Chen-Becker <de...@chen-becker.org> wrote: I think that the warning would only be thrown in the case where a potentially QUORUM-busting configuration is used. I think it would be a worse experience to not warn and let the user discover later when they can't write at QUORUM. Cheers, Derek On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 9:32 AM Jeremiah D Jordan <jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com>> wrote: I agree with Paulo, it would be nice if we could figure out some way to make new NTS work correctly, with a parameter to fall back to the “bad” behavior, so that people restoring backups to a new cluster can get the right behavior to match their backups. The problem with only fixing this in a new strategy is we have a ton of tutorials and docs out there which tell people to use NTS, so it would be great if we could keep “use NTS” as the recommendation. Throwing a warning when someone uses NTS is kind of user hostile. If someone just read some tutorial or doc which told them “make your key space this way” and then when they do that the database yells at them telling them they did it wrong, it is not a great experience. -Jeremiah > On Mar 7, 2023, at 10:16 AM, Benedict > <bened...@apache.org<mailto:bened...@apache.org>> wrote: > > My view is that if this is a pretty serious bug. I wonder if transactional > metadata will make it possible to safely fix this for users without > rebuilding (only via opt-in, of course). > >> On 7 Mar 2023, at 15:54, Miklosovic, Stefan >> <stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com<mailto:stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com>> wrote: >> >> Thanks everybody for the feedback. >> >> I think that emitting a warning upon keyspace creation (and alteration) >> should be enough for starters. If somebody can not live without 100% bullet >> proof solution over time we might choose some approach from the offered >> ones. As the saying goes there is no silver bullet. If we decide to >> implement that new strategy, we would probably emit warnings anyway on NTS >> but it would be already done so just new strategy would be provided. >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: Paulo Motta <pauloricard...@gmail.com<mailto:pauloricard...@gmail.com>> >> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 17:48 >> To: dev@cassandra.apache.org<mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: Degradation of availability when using NTS and RF > number of >> racks >> >> NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> >> >> >> It's a bit unfortunate that NTS does not maintain the ability to lose a rack >> without loss of quorum for RF > #racks > 2, since this can be easily >> achieved by evenly placing replicas across all racks. >> >> Since RackAwareTopologyStrategy is a superset of NetworkTopologyStrategy, >> can't we just use the new correct placement logic for newly created >> keyspaces instead of having a new strategy? >> >> The placement logic would be backwards-compatible for RF <= #racks. On >> upgrade, we could mark existing keyspaces with RF > #racks with >> use_legacy_replica_placement=true to maintain backwards compatibility and >> log a warning that the rack loss guarantee is not maintained for keyspaces >> created before the fix. Old keyspaces with RF <=#racks would still work with >> the new replica placement. The downside is that we would need to keep the >> old NTS logic around, or we could eventually deprecate it and require users >> to migrate keyspaces using the legacy placement strategy. >> >> Alternatively we could have RackAwareTopologyStrategy and fail NTS keyspace >> creation for RF > #racks and indicate users to use RackAwareTopologyStrategy >> to maintain the quorum guarantee on rack loss or set an override flag >> "support_quorum_on_rack_loss=false". This feels a bit iffy though since it >> could potentially confuse users about when to use each strategy. >> >> On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 5:51 AM Miklosovic, Stefan >> <stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com<mailto:stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com><mailto:stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com<mailto:stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com>>> >> wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> some time ago we identified an issue with NetworkTopologyStrategy. The >> problem is that when RF > number of racks, it may happen that NTS places >> replicas in such a way that when whole rack is lost, we lose QUORUM and data >> are not available anymore if QUORUM CL is used. >> >> To illustrate this problem, lets have this setup: >> >> 9 nodes in 1 DC, 3 racks, 3 nodes per rack. RF = 5. Then, NTS could place >> replicas like this: 3 replicas in rack1, 1 replica in rack2, 1 replica in >> rack3. Hence, when rack1 is lost, we do not have QUORUM. >> >> It seems to us that there is already some logic around this scenario (1) but >> the implementation is not entirely correct. This solution is not computing >> the replica placement correctly so the above problem would be addressed. >> >> We created a draft here (2, 3) which fixes it. >> >> There is also a test which simulates this scenario. When I assign 256 tokens >> to each node randomly (by same mean as generatetokens command uses) and I >> try to compute natural replicas for 1 billion random tokens and I compute >> how many cases there will be when 3 replicas out of 5 are inserted in the >> same rack (so by losing it we would lose quorum), for above setup I get >> around 6%. >> >> For 12 nodes, 3 racks, 4 nodes per rack, rf = 5, this happens in 10% cases. >> >> To interpret this number, it basically means that with such topology, RF and >> CL, when a random rack fails completely, when doing a random read, there is >> 6% chance that data will not be available (or 10%, respectively). >> >> One caveat here is that NTS is not compatible with this new strategy anymore >> because it will place replicas differently. So I guess that fixing this in >> NTS will not be possible because of upgrades. I think people would need to >> setup completely new keyspace and somehow migrate data if they wish or they >> just start from scratch with this strategy. >> >> Questions: >> >> 1) do you think this is meaningful to fix and it might end up in trunk? >> >> 2) should not we just ban this scenario entirely? It might be possible to >> check the configuration upon keyspace creation (rf > num of racks) and if we >> see this is problematic we would just fail that query? Guardrail maybe? >> >> 3) people in the ticket mention writing "CEP" for this but I do not see any >> reason to do so. It is just a strategy as any other. What would that CEP >> would even be about? Is this necessary? >> >> Regards >> >> (1) >> https://github.com/apache/cassandra/blob/trunk/src/java/org/apache/cassandra/locator/NetworkTopologyStrategy.java#L126-L128 >> (2) https://github.com/apache/cassandra/pull/2191 >> (3) https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16203 > -- +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Derek Chen-Becker | | GPG Key available at https://keybase.io/dchenbecker<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://keybase.io/dchenbecker__;!!PbtH5S7Ebw!ZHcTzN1au7p0BSEK3WkAR3W3Qrwu4vmO_cXqNzAdhLL3xl5SKig0_e7MUX1aCAmpvA24C47vIZqz-F9jniA$> and | | https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=derek%40chen-becker.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=derek*40chen-becker.org__;JQ!!PbtH5S7Ebw!ZHcTzN1au7p0BSEK3WkAR3W3Qrwu4vmO_cXqNzAdhLL3xl5SKig0_e7MUX1aCAmpvA24C47vIZqzT3hnFAg$> | | Fngrprnt: EB8A 6480 F0A3 C8EB C1E7 7F42 AFC5 AFEE 96E4 6ACC | +---------------------------------------------------------------+
