Ralph Goers wrote:

<snip>agree to all</snip>

Maybe this is just a different way to say the same thing. In our environment we designed and developed the business entities first independent of any view. We then determined what DTOs needed to be transfered to the presentation tier based upon the data the use cases would need, sharing DTOs where that is possible. Then the Business Delegates/Session Facades were implemented to return those DTOs. At the same time the View was implemented using mock DTOs. Finally the two tiers were tied together.
There is one big difference when using Hibernate(d) model: You do not have to use DTOs so it's easier to scale the system but harder to enhance particular views with some specially rendered data.

I try to avoid DTO pattern as much as I can.

Looks like we all agree on this.
Yes

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Leszek Gawron                                      [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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