I'd like to chime in here.
Your points make perfect sense, But as a user ( I say user because
cocoon internals are beyond my capability/time constraints to figure
out) I get stuck with a "WTF" moment, struggle, struggle, struggle,
Email users@, wait maybe 3-4 days, rewrite the mail because maybe I'm
not being clear on my problem, ask again, wait a few more days, then
mail the dev list. Answer usually shows up in 6-8 hours ( I think
because I am in western Canada, and you all are asleep when I mail :) )
I have all these messages in the same mail folder, and I am just as bad
about reading the user list and answering the questions I am able to.
The first 2 years were, basically, hell. But once I figured out the
basics, I find my self not reading the list so much, and just emptying
the folder when I hit about 2000 messages (Pausing on the usually very
interesting [RT]'s ) because everything works now - I figured out how to
use it, I am off making my own POJO's to plug into the basic cocoon
install I have settled on. I have a suspicion that the drop in traffic
is attributable to this - users simply evolve. The questions I have to
ask now (As opposed to when I started with cocoon) simply can't be
answered by the other new people on users@
I think consolidating the two lists would be very helpful because it
will be a single resource we all would use.
Maybe I am talking out my *** , but there's my thoughts.
JD
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing
the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions?
I think I have a few good reasons for this:
One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it
is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even
know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent
software developers who would often have interesting things to say if
they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more
involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious
application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool,
which it has never been and will never be.
Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@
questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the
list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a
waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to
go away after not getting good enough answers.
Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC
MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually
or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic,
we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about
good subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is
not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D
Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again
a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We
developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of
general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our
home".
Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core
Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness
and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative
here, on purpose ;-)
Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by
defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to
be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good
use of the [marker]).
Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users
better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes.
So, WDYT?
I don't have that many reasons, but I don't think this is a good idea:
One: Marketing wise, this will be a very bad sign, and would give to the
outside world the impression that the Cocoon acceptance has shrunk so
much than two lists are too much. And although traffic has dropped,
we're far from that.
Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users.
Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts
of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced
users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking
about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon,
exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn
away.
Now you're right that some developers neglect users@ (yeah, I'm in this
category). This used to be because of the huge traffic. In my
Thunderbird, users@ is deep down in the lists I read through
news.gmane.org. That's a bad thing and I will now use a regular mail
subscription so that it sits just beside the dev@ folder that I monitor
every 5 minutes. And I strongly invite other devs in the same situation
as me to do so.
Let's consider the users-fr@ example: some people have started
participating there, then started to participate to users@ and are now
on dev@, even if occasionally. We need IMO different discussion areas
where different kind of topic are to be addressed, and where people can
progress.
Now the main point is that progression in the lists should go from
bottom to top (i.e. users->dev) and that once you feel fluent in an
upper level (no pejorative meaning intented with "upper") you should
still be present in the lower levels to share your knowledge. Once
again, I'm one of the faulty devs regarding this, and I think that if we
all dedicate to users@ a bit of the time we spend for dev@, that can
make a difference.
Sylvain
