Hi all guys!!! sorry for joining so late the discussion (working on some stuff as bricklayer at home!!! didn't know it is fun!)
* I don't understand why JULI should be so "complicated" to be adopted... if in trouble, please take a look at juli-to-log4j[1] bride written by our ASF mate Paul Smith. I'm a big fan on Google Guice and I tend to write my tasks on work on top of JSR330 using it - it relies 100% on JULI for logging, when/if something goes wrong, I just hijack the logging to log4j or logback. done. And believe me, if I can do it, everybody can. * given the previous fact, the proposed facade by slf4j reminds me what we could already do using JULI and related bridges - please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure there are missing features I'm not aware, but I could bridge JULI to logback as well - and if omitting the -Djava.util.logging.manager=org.apache.logging.julbridge.JULBridgeLogManager is a so huge difference, I missed something * Ceki, you can't immagine how much I have to be thankful to you!!! :) I strongly respect you, your POV and what you've been doing, but I hope there will be the chance to bring you back to the ASF :) Have a nice day, all the best!!! Simo [1] http://people.apache.org/~psmith/logging.apache.org/sandbox/jul-log4j-bridge/ http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/ http://www.99soft.org/ On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ceki Gulcu <c...@qos.ch> wrote: > On 09.08.2011 11:57, Christian Grobmeier wrote: >>>> >>>> Another option is to try to work with Ceki to address some of the >>>> concerns of the commons community with regards to using slf4j. >>>> >>>> * There is a hassle with too many jars for dependencies with slf4j. >>>> * Every time Ceki goes on vacation everything stops. >>>> * Some have a preference for Apache driven projects. >>>> * Figuring out the dependencies that are needed can be difficult. >>> >>> Another option would be to try to convince Ceki to move his project to >>> the ASF? He is an ASF member, right? What were his concerns about >>> the ASF that made him start his project elsewhere? >> >> Ceki is an ASF member and even a Logging PMC. >> You can read most about his concerns on his blog, for example: >> http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/forces-and-vulnerabilites-of-apache.html >> http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/committocracy-as-alternative-for.html >> >> He seems to be very opposed to the ASF model; there was much bad >> feelings in the "log4j case" before I started with logging and >> therefore I doubt that Ceki is willing to go back to the ASF. At least >> his blogposts reflect that he is not satisfied with the "Apache Way" >> itself instead of personal trouble, which we might be able to solve. >> Ceki is reading this list, so maybe he wants to elaborate a bit more. > > * On the ASF model > > In a nutshell, while the ASF is a great organization in many ways, it > is not a meritocracy mainly because merit is not measured at all and > at the project level no responsiblity is accrued on merit beyond > committership. BTW, the BDFL model is not a meritocracy > either. Finding a good model for running organisations is no simple > matter. The Apache model may even be better than some but it bothers > me that the ASF misrepresents itself as a meritocracy. > > * On logging > > One of the disadvantages of a relatively large and open ecosystem such > as Java is that you get several competing libraries solving common > problems. Logging is a rather devisive case in point. > > SLF4J has deficiences with regards to modularity are imho testimony to > the lack of a widely accepted solution to modularity in Java. In any > case, I am unaware of a satisfactory solution. OSGi is of course one > possible approach but OSGi is a complex beast and not that widely > accepted (yet). > > As for deficiences in SLF4J API, varargs support [1] and event data > support come to mind. Varargs support is very likely to be added in > SLF4J 2.0. As for event data support mentioned by Ralph, the idea was > initially proposed by Joern Huxhorn. I am not entirely convinced by > it. > > However, Ralph is right to observe that had SLF4J been developped at > the ASF and that Ralph, Joern and me were the only SLF4J > developpers, event data support would probably be part of the SLF4J > API. Having said that, since event data support is a little > controversial, it might have been turned down at the ASF as well > (assuming the involvement of more developpers who shared my lack of > enthusiams for event data). > > Anyway, Ralph made some very valuable contributiuons to the logback > project and I am sorry to see him stop. Given what I have seen of his > work, he will surely do an excellent job with log4j v2. > > [1] http://bugzilla.slf4j.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31 > > -- > Ceki > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org
