Hi,

Many thanks for your comprehensive answer. Indeed what I seek is the more composable approach you describe.

Thanks, fortunately I have nothing for COM in particular, it was just an attempt to illustrate my point in case it wasn't clear enough.

From what I understand in your message, I'll need to look into couch_epi and the "mochiweb to cowboy" topic you mention to make sure that what I'm after is not actually already supported. I've seen that in practice, the more mature extensions of the ecosystem, "couchdb-lucene" and "GeoCouch" took what looks like a fork approach, so I assumed the framework wasn't existing.

I don't mind having to learn Erlang to be honest with you, what I don't want as a third-party developer is to have to rebuild my extensions whenever there is a new minor release of CouchDb. I don't want to have to maintain a fork.

Perhaps it's worth noting that we mainly develop on Windows where building things from source is not as common as on Linux. But I'm sure that independently of the platform, in terms of development effort, it is a very big plus to have access to the pipeline and some context dynamically, without having to rebuild anything. I'm thinking about a plugin architecture like the one used for Visual Studio Extensions in terms of usage (like for COM I am not trying to push for a particular implementation, just illustrating my point)

In terms of use case, the idea is to be able to extend Couchdb as easily as by dropping a binary in a folder and activating the extension via Fauxton. The author of such an extension wouldn't have to update it for 3.x.x releases, but would find reasonable to be required to do a update when 4.0.0 or 5.0.0 is released


On 28/09/2016 20:26, Robert Samuel Newson wrote:
Hi,

We can certainly do better on this front. I will say that the (now venerable) 
couchdb-lucene project had no problem extending couchdb into full-search 
capability without source modifications.

In 2.0, it's true that we've made things harder to plugin. The couch_epi 
application is our general answer here, it allows a programmatic override to 
various places, and we can expand on those hook points easily enough. It does 
mean writing erlang code, though.

When we talk about switching from mochiweb to cowboy, we gain another 
possibility to allow extensions through cowboy middleware.

To truly make couchdb extensible/pluggable to the degree you seem to be asking 
for would be more work than that, I think. Under the covers, of course, couchdb 
is already composed of a large set of independent processes that communicate 
with each other using messages.

The couch_index/couch_mrview split from years back was specifically to allow 
for new index types to be added smoothly (geocouch was the motivating case, in 
fact). It's fair to say that it did not pan out, but other approaches could.

I think it best not to raise the specter of COM (or CORBA), the details of that 
distract from the intention here. What you seek is a more composable approach, 
where you could assemble a system of couchdb components and custom components?

It might help at this point to hear some more examples of the extensions you 
didn't feel able to make.

B.

On 28 Sep 2016, at 13:04, Reddy B. <[email protected]> wrote:

I've been very busy with work for one month only and when I catch up 2.0 is out 
and you're even talking about 3.0, congratulations.

I'd like to contribute to this list, I've not read the source code of CouchDb 
yet so I can't be too precise but as the head of development of several 
companies, I thought my proposition could be valuable.

The one big regret I have with CouchDb is the difficulty to extend it. Namely 
the necessity to rebuild CouchDb from sources to add things such as Lucene, or 
even GeoCouch. To take our example, we would have contributed a number of 
extensions to CouchDb already if it wasn't for that. Perhaps it's just me, but 
there really is a psychological threshold to pass to get into building a 
third-party project, and another one to get into forking it. I personally don't 
know if I'll ever get around it, because there's too much cost and maintenance 
requirements involved.

I'm not sure exactly what the limitation is and if this is achievable, but some sort 
of language agnostic plugin architecture/extendability pipeline would be absolutely 
great and in my opinion can be an interesting priority for a version 3.0, as it would 
dramatically help boost the number of contributions to the CouchDb ecosystem. I'm not 
sure I have the terminology right, but it might all come down to making the creation 
of custom indexes rebuild-free and language agnostic. I'm thinking of something in 
the idea of COM APIs 
<https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms680573%28v=vs.85%29.aspx>.

If you find the idea interesting, I'd be happy to start getting my hands dirty 
and work on it.


On 27/09/2016 14:56, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
Hi all,

apologies in advance, this is going to be a long email.


I’ve been holding this back intentionally in order to be able to focus on 
shipping 2.0, but now that that’s out, I feel we should talk about what’s next.

This email is separated into areas of work that I think CouchDB could improve on, some with 
very concrete plans, some with rather vague ideas. I’ve been collecting these over the past 
year or <strike>two</strike>five, so it’s fairly wide, but I’m sure I’m missing 
things that other people find important, so please add to this list.

After the initial discussion here, I’ll move all of the individual issues to 
JIRA, so we can go down our usual process.

This is basically my wish list, and I’d like this to become everyone’s wish 
list, so please add what I’ve been missing. :) — Note, this isn’t a 
free-for-all, only suggest things that you are prepared to see through being 
shipped, from design, implementation to docs.

I don’t have a specific order for these in mind, although I have a rough idea 
of what we should be doing first. Putting all of this on a roadmap is going to 
be a fun future exercise for us, though :)

One last note: this doesn’t include anything on documentation or testing. I 
fully expect to step our game from here on out. This list is for the technical 
aspects of the project.

* * *

These are the areas of work I’ve roughly come up with that my suggestions fit 
into:

- API
- Storage
- Query
- Replication
- Cluster
- Fauxton
- Releases
- Performance
- Internals
- Builds
- Features

(I’m not claiming these are any good, but it’s what I’ve got)


Let’s go.


* * *

# API

## HTTP2

I think this is an obvious first next step. Our HTTP Layer needs work, our 
existing HTTP server library is not getting HTTP2 support, it’s time to attack 
this head-first. I’m imagining a Cowboy[1]-based HTTP layer that calls into a 
unified internals layer and everything will be rose-golden. HTTP2 support for 
Cowboy is still in progress. Maybe we can help them along, or we focus on the 
internals refactor first and drop Cowboy in later (not sure how feasible this 
approach is, but we’ll figure this out.

In my head, we focus on this and call the result 3.0 in 6-12 months. That 
doesn’t mean we *only* do this, but this will be the focus (more on this later).

There are a few fun considerations, mainly of the “avoid Python 
2/3-chasm”-type. Do we re-implement the 2.0 API with all its idiosyncrasies, or 
do we take the opportunity to clean things up while we are at it? If yes, how 
and how long do we support the then old API? Do we manage this via different 
ports? If yes, how can this me made to work for hosting services like Cloudant? 
Etc. etc.

[1] https://github.com/ninenines/cowboy


## Sub-Document Operations

Currently a doc update needs the whole doc body sent to the server. There are 
some obvious performance improvements possible. For the longest time, I wanted 
to see if we can model sub-document operations via JSON Pointers[2]. These 
would roughly allow pointing to a JSON value via a URL.

For example in this doc:

{
   "_id": "123abc",
   "_rev": "zyx987",
   "contact": {
     "name": "",
     "address": {
       "street": "Long Street",
       "nr": 123
       "zip": "12345"
     }
}

An update to the zip code could look like this:

curl -X POST $SERVER/db/123abc/_jsonpointer/contact/address/zip?rev=zyx987 -d 
'54321'

GET/DELETE accordingly. We could shortcut the `_jsonpointer` to just `_` if we 
like the short magic.

JSONPointer can deal with nested objects and lists and works fairly well for 
this type of stuff, and it is rather simple to implement (even I could do it: 
https://github.com/janl/erl-jsonpointer/blob/master/src/jsonpointer.erl — This 
idea is literally 5 years old, it looks like, no need to use my code if there 
is anything better).

This is just a raw idea, and I’m happy to solve this any other way, if somebody 
has a good approach.

[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6901


## HTTP PATCH / JSON Diff

Another stab at a similar problem are HTTP PATCH with JSON Diff, but with the 
inherent problems of JSON normalisation, I’m leaning towards the JSONPointer 
variant as simpler, but I’d be open for this as well, if someone comes up with 
a good approach.


## GraphQL[3]

It’s rather new, but getting good traction[4]. This would be a nice addition to 
our API. Somebody might already be hacking on this ;)

[3]: http://graphql.org
[4]: http://githubengineering.com/the-github-graphql-api/


## Mango for Document Validation

The only place where we absolutely require writing JS is validate_doc_update 
functions. Some security behaviour can only be enforced there. With their 
inherent performance problems, I’d like to get doc validations out of the path 
of the query server and would love to find a way to validate document updates 
through Mango.


## Redesign Security System

Our security system is slowly grown and not coherently designed. We should 
start over. I have many ideas and opinions, but they are out of scope for this. 
I think everybody here agrees that we can do better. This *very likely* will 
*not* include per-document ACLs as per the often stated issues with that 
approach in our data model.

* * *


# Replication

This is our flagship feature of course, and there are a few things we can do 
better.


## Mobile-optimised extension or new version of the protocol

The original protocol design didn’t take mobile devices into account and 
through PouchDB et.al. we are now learning that there are number of downsides 
to our protocol. We’ve helped a lot with introducing _bulk_get/_revs, but 
that’s more a bandaid than a considered strategy ;)

That new version could also be HTTP2-only, to take advantage of the new 
connection semantics there.


## Easy way to skip deletes on sync

This one is self-explanatory, mobile clients usually don’t need to sync deletes 
from a year ago first. Mango filters might already get us there, maybe we can 
do better.


## Sync a rolling subset

Say you always want to keep the last 90 days of email on a mobile device with 
optionally back-loading older documents on user-request. It is something I 
could see getting a lot of traction.

Today, this can be built on 1.x with clever use of _purge, but that’s hardly a 
good experience. I don’t know if it can be done in a cluster.


## Selective Sync

There might be other criteria than “last 90 days”, so the more general solution 
to this problem class would be arbitrary (e.g. client-directed) selective sync, 
but this might be really hard as opposed to just very hard of the “last 90 
days” one, so happy to punt on this first. But filters are generally not the 
answer, especially with large data sets. Maybe proper sync from views _changes 
is the answer.


## A _db_updates powered _replicator DB

Running thousands+ of replications on a server is not really resource friendly 
today, we should teach the replicator to only run replication on active 
databases via _db_updates. Somebody might already be looking into this one.

* * *


# Storage


## Pluggable Storage Engines

Paul Davis already showed some work on allowing multiple different storage 
backends. I’d like to see this land.

## Different Storage Backends

These don’t all have to be supported by the main project, but I’d really like 
to see some experimentation with different backends like LevelDB[5]/RocksDB[6], 
InnoDB[7], SQLite[8] a native-erlang one that is optimised for space usage and 
not performance (I don’t want to budge on safety). Similarly, it’d be fun to 
see if there is a compression format that we can use as a storage backend 
directly, so we get full-DB compression as opposed to just per-doc compression.

[5]: http://leveldb.org
[6]: http://rocksdb.org
[7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InnoDB
[8]: https://www.sqlite.org

* * *


# Query

## Teach Mango JOINs and result sorting

It’s the natural path for query languages. We should make these happen. Once we 
have the basics, we might even be able to find a way to compile basic SQL into 
Mango, it’s going to be glorious :)


## “No-JavaScript”-mode

I’ve hinted at this above, but I’d really like a way for users to use CouchDB 
productively without having to write a line of JavaScript. My main motivation 
is the poor performance characteristics of the Query Server (hello CGI[9]?). 
But even with one that is improved, it will always faster to do any, say 
filtering or validation operations in native Erlang. I don’t know if we can 
expand Mango to cover all this, and I’m not really concerned about the 
specifics, as long as we get there.

Of course, for pro-users, the JS-variant will still be around.

[9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface


## Query Server V2

We need to revamp the Query Server. It is hardcoded to an out-of-date version 
of SpiderMonkey and we are stuck with C-bindings that barely anyone dares to 
look at, let alone iterate on.

I believe the way forward is re-vamping the query server protocol to use 
streaming IO instead of blocking batches like we do now, and use JS-native 
implementation of the JS-side instead of C-bindings.

I’m partial to doing this straight in Node, because there is a ton of support 
for things we need already, and I believe we’ve solved the isolation issues 
required for secure MapReduce, but I’m happy to use any other thing as well, if 
it helps.

Other benefits would be support for emerging JS features that devs will want to 
use.

And we can have two modes: standalone QS like now, and embedded QS where, say, 
V8 is compiled into the Erlang VM. Not everybody will want to run this, but 
it’ll be neat for those who do.


* * *


# Cluster

## Rebalancing

With this we will be able to grow clusters one by one instead of hitting a wall 
when eventually each shard lives on a single machine. E.g. when you add a node 
to the cluster, all other nodes share 1/Nth of their data with the new node, 
and everything can keep going. Same for removing a node and shrinking the 
cluster.

Couchbase has this and it is really nice.


## Setup

Even without rebalancing, we need a nice Fauxton UI to manage the cluster, so 
far we only have a simple setup procedure (which is great don’t get me wrong), 
but users will want to do more elaborate cluster management and we should make 
that easy with a slick UI.


## Cluster-Aware Clients

This might end up being not a good idea, but I’d like some experimentation 
here. Say you’d have a CouchDB client that could be hooked into the cluster 
topology so it’d know which nodes to query for which data, then we can save a 
proxy-hop, and build clients that have lower-latency access to CouchDB. Again, 
this is something that Couchbase does and I think is worth exploring.



* * *


# Fauxton

Fauxton is great, but it could be better too, I think. I’m mostly concerned 
about number of clicks/taps required for more specialised actions (like setting 
the group_level of a reduce query, it’s like 15 or so). More cluster info would 
also be nice, and maybe a specialised dashboard for db-per-user setups.


* * *


# Releases


## Six-Week Release Trains

We need to get back to frequent releases and I propose to go back to our 
six-week-release train plans from three years ago. Whatever lands within a 
release train time frame goes out. The nature of the change dictates the 
version number increment as per semver, and we just ship a new version every 
six weeks, even if it only includes a single bug fix. We should automate most 
of this infrastructure, so actual releases are cheap. We are reasonably close 
with this, but we need some more folks to step up on using and maintaining our 
CI systems.


## One major feature per major version

I also propose to keep the scope of future major versions small, so we don’t 
have to wait another 3-5 years for 3.0. In particular, I think we should focus 
on a single major feature per major version and get that shipped within 6-12 
months tops. If anything needs more time, it needs to be broken up. Of course 
we continue to add features and fix things while this happens, but as a 
project, there is *one* major feature we push. For example, for 3.0 I see our 
push be behind HTTP2 support. There is a lot of subsequent work required to 
make that happen, so it’ll be a worthwhile 3.0, but we can ship it in 6-12 
months (hopefully).

Best case scenario, we have CouchDB 4.0 coming out 12 months from now with two 
new major features. That would be amazing.


* * *


# Performance

## Perf Team

We need a team to comprehensive look at CouchDB performance. There is a lot of 
low-hanging fruit like Robert Kowalski showed a while back, we should get back 
into this. I’m mostly inspired by SQLite who’ve done a release a while back 
that only focussed on 1-2% performance improvements, but got like 20-30 of 
those and made the thing a lot faster across the board. I can’t remember where 
I read about this, but I’ll update this once I find the link.


## Benchmark Suite

We need a benchmark suite that tests a variety of different work loads. The 
goal here is to run different versions of CouchDB against the same suite on the 
same hardware, to see where are going. I’m imagining a http://arewefastyet.com 
style dashboard where we can track this, and even run this on Pull Requests and 
not allow them if they significantly impact performance.


## Synthetic Load Suite

This one is for end users. I’d like to be able to say: My app produces mostly 
10-20kb-sized docs, but millions of those in a single database, or across 1000s 
of databases, with these views etc. and then run this on target hardware so I’d 
know, e.g. how many nodes I need for a cluster with my estimated workload. I 
know this can only be done in approximation, but I think this could make a big 
difference in CouchDB adoption and feed back into Perf Team mentioned above.

* * *


# Internals

## Consolidate Repositories

With 2.0 we started to experiment with radically small modules for our 
components and I think we’ve come to the conclusion that some consolidation is 
better for us going forward. Obvious candidates for separate repos are docs, 
Fauxton etc. but also some of the Erlang modules that other projects reasonably 
would use.


## Elixir

I’d like it very much if we elevate Elixir as a prime target language for 
writing CouchDB internals. I believe this would get us an influx of new 
developers that we badly need to get all the things I’m listing here done. 
Somebody might be looking into the technical aspects of this already, but we 
need to decide as a project if we are okay with that.


## GitHub Issues

I hope we can transition to GitHub Issues soon.

* * *


# Builds

I’d like automated builds for source, Docker et.al., rpm, deb, brew, ports, Mac 
Binary, etc with proper release channels for people to subscribe to, all 
powered by CI for nightly builds, so people can test in-development versions 
easily.

I’d also like builds that include popular community plugins like Geo or 
Fulltext Search.



* * *


# Features

## Better Support for db-per-user

I don’t know what this will look like, but this is a pattern, and we need to 
support it better.

One approach could be “virtual dbs” that are backed by a single database, but 
that’s usually at odds with views, so we could make this an XOR and disable 
views on these dbs. Since this usually powers client-heavy apps, querying 
usually happens there anyway.

Another approach would be better / easier cross-db aggregation or querying. 
There are a few approaches, but nothing really slick.


## Schema Extraction

I have half an (old) patch that extracts top level fields from a document and 
stores them with a hash in an “attachment” to the database header. So we only 
end up storing doc values and the schema hash. First of all this trades storage 
for CPU time (I haven’t measured anything yet), but more interestingly, we 
could use that schema data to do smart things like auto-generating a validation 
function / mango expression based on the data that is already in the database. 
And other fun things like easier schema migration operations that are native in 
CouchDB and thus a lot faster than external ones. For the curious ones, I’ve 
got the idea from V8’s property access optimisation strategy[10].

[10]: https://github.com/v8/v8/wiki/Design%20Elements#fast-property-access

* * *

Alright, that’s it for now. Can’t wait for your feedback!

Best
Jan

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