Thank you all for working on this! +1 on conducting a survey!
@Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar example, also mentioning qq.com: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out why > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > > Best, > Kurt > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Gordon, > > > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your > > information gives a good answer! > > > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`. > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about > it > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This > > may > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. > > > > - Network problem. > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in > > preference to qq.com, etc. > > > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I > want > > to let more people join in the survey. > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < > tzuli...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a > moderator > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > > > > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing > to > > > the Apache mailing list. > > > > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, > for > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This > would > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since > > they > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email > conversations > > > from the mailing list either. > > > > > > Best, > > > Gordon > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > people > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing > > > list > > > > frequently. > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more > on > > > > mailing lists? > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, > > when > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML. > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help > answer > > > the > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in > > > group > > > > again. > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing > > too > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 to > > > 10,000 > > > > in the past months. > > > > > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > We > > > can > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself. > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > > > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > information? > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this. > > > > > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for > > your > > > > nice > > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is > > that > > > a > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of > > > > people > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even > > though, > > > > for > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the > > > DingTalk > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For > > > these > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > > > > > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I > think > > we > > > > can > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more > convenient > > > and > > > > > fast. > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing > list > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > > > > > 7. other reasons. > > > > > > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > > > > > > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team > has > > > > done > > > > > a > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not > > > about > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth > > pain > > > > > IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to > > use > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people > more > > > on > > > > > > mailing lists? > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower > > > cost > > > > > than > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case > > > too. > > > > > The > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it > > though. > > > > > When I > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were > typically a > > > log > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of > them > > > > never > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have > > > changed > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow > good > > > > > apache > > > > > > practices. > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with > > Flink > > > > > China > > > > > > operation team". > > > > > > > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on > user-zh's > > > low > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team > as > > > part > > > > > of > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas > and > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all > > > > **devs** > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main > > > > > question > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** > voted > > or > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the > > > purpose > > > > of > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we > > can > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China > operation > > > team > > > > > as > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join > > > > related > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group > with > > > 10k > > > > > > > members! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the > > > Chinese-speaking > > > > > > world > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND > > follow > > > > > good > > > > > > > apache practices. > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support > via > > > > Chat > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away > > > from > > > > > > that, > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in > > > China. > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing > > > lists, > > > > > or > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > > people > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > > > > frequently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > searching. > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > > supports > > > > > > > searching > > > > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on > > Baidu. > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, > > > Baidu > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > > > information? > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help > when > > > > they > > > > > > run > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk. > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, > but > > > > > people > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > > > > frequently. > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although > in > > > > hours. > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing > > > list. > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > > searching. > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > > supports > > > > > > > searching > > > > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on > > > Baidu. > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, > > > Baidu > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most > > > questions > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 > people > > > now. > > > > > > > Here're > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and > updates, > > > > > > broadcast > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer > > > > questions > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We > > > > probably > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, > > > topics > > > > > lost > > > > > > > > fast, > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing > > any > > > > > > > homework > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and > > haven't > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > look > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group > is > > > > also > > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists > > nowadays > > > > for > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic > focused, > > > > etc. > > > > > > And > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should > > happen > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that > > > > DingTalk > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together > > with > > > > our > > > > > > > > user-zh > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just > let > > > it > > > > > > drive > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how > we > > > > should > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be > > > used > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, > > > broadcasting > > > > > live > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should > be > > > > > diverted > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group > so > > > > that > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old and > I > > > > wanted > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > hear > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), > I > > > > would > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also > > > > > understand > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last > > > century. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption > > of > > > > that > > > > > > > > mailing > > > > > > > > >> list? > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up > > on > > > > > Baidu > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it > > makes > > > > > sense > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > > > >> Robert > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
