Hi community, I have tested two most widely used mailbox website mail.qq.com and mail.163.com(belongs to Netease).
qq.mail works fine, good job @vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com>! 163.mail almost works fine. I have received all the response mails, although the last one is marked as spam. I received the new mail of the mailing list from both of them. But there is a delay of 7 or 8 minutes of 163.com. I'm not sure it's always like this or not. Will keep observing it. Another thing, the survey of @Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> shows that about 14 people said their questions are not answered in mailing list. There always be some questions that are hard to answer in the user-zh mailing list. Like "why my job is delayed" but without providing any detail, or some questions that are more relevant with Java or operating system but not Flink. Mail like these probably be ignored. I have a proposal that we Chinese-speaker of community could do better if we can give them a response even it's not an answer. A positive feedback is helpful for the user without a good technical background. I think the user-zh mailing list would be more active if each question gets a feedback. Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月24日周一 上午10:34写道： > Hi, > > I'd like to share you the result of the survey. Thanks for the help > from @Gordon, @Jark and the Flink China operation team when conducting the > survey. > > A total of 81 people participated in the survey. 46 of them choose not to > use the mailing list. Among these people, the reasons are(Note that a > respondent may choose multiple reasons): > 1. 22 people report that problems can be solved in the Dingtalk group and > it's more convenient than the mailing list. > 2. 22 people even don't know there is a Chinese user mailing list. > 3. 20 people don't know how to use the mailing list even though they have > ever heard of it. > 4. 14 people said that problems can't be solved in the mailing list even > they asked in it. > 5. 16 people choose to use the English user mailing list. > > From the result, the biggest obstacle that stops more people involved in > the mailing list is people don't know it or don't know how to use it. To > solve the problem, we can do more publicity. I have also recorded a usage > video about how to subscribe and use the mailing list. Hope it will help. > > However, doing more publicity is not enough as 14 people said problems > can't be solved efficiently in the mailing list. More people should also be > involved to answer the problems. I don't know whether is it possible for > the Chinese Flink team on duty to answer the problems. I think that would > help. > > Great to have other opinions. > > Best, Hequn > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:50 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi vino, > > > > Thanks a lot for unblocking the email address. I have told the user about > > this. > > Hope things can get better. > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi Hequn, > >> > >> Thanks for reporting this case. > >> > >> The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*. > So > >> this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level > interception. > >> > >> Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can > >> receive > >> the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally. > >> > >> If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please > >> report it here again. > >> > >> Best, > >> Vino > >> > >> > >> Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道： > >> > >> > Hi Vino, > >> > > >> > Great thanks for your help. > >> > > >> > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache > >> mail > >> > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox > to > >> > facilitate the location problem. > >> > > >> > I just got one feedback. > >> > A user(173855...@qq.com) report that he can't receive the emails from > >> the > >> > Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on > >> > 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails > >> come > >> > again from the mailing list. > >> > > >> > Best, Hequn > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Hi Kurt, > >> > > > >> > > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1]. > >> > > > >> > > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this > problem. > >> > > > >> > > Best, > >> > > Vino > >> > > > >> > > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249 > >> > > > >> > > Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道： > >> > > > >> > > > Hi vino, > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with > >> > apache > >> > > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together. > >> > > > You can try to leave comments in this jira: > >> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > >> > > > > >> > > > Best, > >> > > > Kurt > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > Hi all, > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used > and > >> > > caused > >> > > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name > of > >> the > >> > > QQ > >> > > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail > >> > server > >> > > > does > >> > > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the > spammers > >> > were > >> > > > from > >> > > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails > >> were > >> > > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of > >> bouncers > >> > to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the > anti-spam > >> > > system > >> > > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. > >> > Besides > >> > > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam > >> > > strategy > >> > > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues > >> to > >> > > > receive > >> > > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective > >> > > interception > >> > > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the > >> > Apache > >> > > > mail > >> > > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of > the > >> > > bounce > >> > > > > attack. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from > >> Apache > >> > > mail > >> > > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ > >> mailbox > >> > to > >> > > > > facilitate the location problem. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected > and > >> > > > returned > >> > > > > to the QQ mailbox. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Best, > >> > > > > Vino > >> > > > > > >> > > > > vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道： > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Robert, > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Yes, QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent. > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. > Once > >> I > >> > get > >> > > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here. > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Best, > >> > > > >> Vino. > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道： > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >>> Thanks a lot! > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right? > >> > > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at > >> > Tencent > >> > > > >>> (Vino > >> > > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this > >> > > mailing > >> > > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to > resolve > >> > that > >> > > > >>> problem? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit > us, > >> and > >> > > all > >> > > > >>> our > >> > > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend > >> people > >> > > use > >> > > > >>> other > >> > > > >>> > providers." > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails > >> when > >> > > using > >> > > > >>> > apache > >> > > > >>> > mailing list. > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > Best, > >> > > > >>> > Kurt > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young < > ykt...@gmail.com > >> > > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and > see > >> > what > >> > > > >>> will > >> > > > >>> > > happen. > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > Best, > >> > > > >>> > > Kurt > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger < > >> > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >> > > > >>> > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this! > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey! > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA > >> (see a > >> > > > >>> similar > >> > > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com: > >> > > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young < > >> ykt...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra > >> team to > >> > > > find > >> > > > >>> out > >> > > > >>> > >> why > >> > > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > >> > > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > Best, > >> > > > >>> > >> > Kurt > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng < > >> > > > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > >> > > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a > >> lot of > >> > > > >>> people > >> > > > >>> > >> told me > >> > > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list > >> > > normally. I > >> > > > >>> think > >> > > > >>> > >> your > >> > > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer! > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of > >> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@ > >> > > > >>> > `. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to > >> > > > subscribe > >> > > > >>> > using > >> > > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also > >> > > emphasize > >> > > > >>> more > >> > > > >>> > >> about > >> > > > >>> > >> > it > >> > > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply > to > >> > the > >> > > > >>> users if > >> > > > >>> > >> they > >> > > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing > >> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`? > >> > > > >>> > >> This > >> > > > >>> > >> > > may > >> > > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking > mailing > >> > list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. > >> Just > >> > > now, > >> > > > I > >> > > > >>> told > >> > > > >>> > >> one > >> > > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result > shows > >> > > > >>> everything > >> > > > >>> > >> becomes > >> > > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only > >> > thing > >> > > we > >> > > > >>> can > >> > > > >>> > do > >> > > > >>> > >> is > >> > > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell > >> them to > >> > > use > >> > > > >>> Gmail > >> > > > >>> > >> in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on > >> Friday > >> > > this > >> > > > >>> week. > >> > > > >>> > I > >> > > > >>> > >> > want > >> > > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai > < > >> > > > >>> > >> > tzuli...@apache.org> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I > >> > receive > >> > > > as > >> > > > >>> a > >> > > > >>> > >> > moderator > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be > >> someone > >> > > > >>> trying to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ > >> > > address, > >> > > > >>> and > >> > > > >>> > not > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something > better > >> we > >> > > can > >> > > > >>> do in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the > >> procedures > >> > in > >> > > > >>> > >> subscribing > >> > > > >>> > >> > to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach > >> some > >> > > email > >> > > > >>> > >> domains, > >> > > > >>> > >> > for > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are > being > >> > > > blocked. > >> > > > >>> This > >> > > > >>> > >> > would > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the > >> > mailing > >> > > > >>> list > >> > > > >>> > >> since > >> > > > >>> > >> > > they > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal > user > >> > email > >> > > > >>> > >> > conversations > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Best, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu < > >> > > imj...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >> > > > >>> questions, but > >> > > > >>> > >> > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind > >> users > >> > > to > >> > > > >>> use > >> > > > >>> > >> mailing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > list > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to > >> > educate > >> > > > >>> people > >> > > > >>> > >> more > >> > > > >>> > >> > on > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn > >> said. > >> > > > >>> Several > >> > > > >>> > >> times, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > when > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them > >> please > >> > use > >> > > > >>> user-zh > >> > > > >>> > >> ML. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But > >> > could > >> > > > you > >> > > > >>> help > >> > > > >>> > >> > answer > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > the > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to > >> answer > >> > > the > >> > > > >>> > >> question in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > group > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > again. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in > >> Dingtalk > >> > > group > >> > > > >>> is > >> > > > >>> > >> growing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > too > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number > >> grows > >> > > from > >> > > > >>> 5,000 > >> > > > >>> > >> to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't > >> > support > >> > > > >>> > >> searching. > >> > > > >>> > >> > We > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > can > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which > supports > >> > > > >>> searching > >> > > > >>> > >> itself. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is > >> the > >> > > > link: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the > >> help. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for > >> > > technology-related > >> > > > >>> > >> > information? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is > >> still > >> > > > Baidu > >> > > > >>> for > >> > > > >>> > >> most > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve > SEO. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some > >> > > > experience > >> > > > >>> on > >> > > > >>> > >> this. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good > >> way > >> > to > >> > > > >>> have a > >> > > > >>> > >> better > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what > do > >> > > users > >> > > > >>> need. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng < > >> > > > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank > >> Bowen > >> > > and > >> > > > >>> Jark > >> > > > >>> > >> for > >> > > > >>> > >> > > your > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > nice > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I > >> think > >> > > the > >> > > > >>> reason > >> > > > >>> > >> is > >> > > > >>> > >> > > that > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > a > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the > group. > >> > There > >> > > > >>> are a > >> > > > >>> > >> lot of > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the > >> DingTalk > >> > > > group. > >> > > > >>> > Even > >> > > > >>> > >> > > though, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well > be > >> > > solved > >> > > > >>> in > >> > > > >>> > the > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and > lost > >> in > >> > > the > >> > > > >>> group. > >> > > > >>> > >> For > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > these > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good > >> choice. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are > >> > > becoming > >> > > > >>> > >> ruined. In > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by > >> Bowen > >> > and > >> > > > >>> Jark, I > >> > > > >>> > >> > think > >> > > > >>> > >> > > we > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > can > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks > >> from > >> > > > users, > >> > > > >>> such > >> > > > >>> > >> as: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, > >> it is > >> > > > more > >> > > > >>> > >> > convenient > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > and > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user > >> mailing > >> > > > list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user > >> mailing > >> > > > list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese > >> user > >> > > > >>> mailing > >> > > > >>> > list > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the > >> chinese > >> > > user > >> > > > >>> > mailing > >> > > > >>> > >> > list > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing > list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it > >> here. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li < > >> > > > >>> > bowenl...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink > >> China > >> > > > >>> operation > >> > > > >>> > >> team > >> > > > >>> > >> > has > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > done > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > a > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! > This > >> > > > >>> discussion > >> > > > >>> > is > >> > > > >>> > >> not > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > about > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as > more > >> > of a > >> > > > >>> high > >> > > > >>> > >> growth > >> > > > >>> > >> > > pain > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to > >> ask > >> > > > >>> questions, > >> > > > >>> > >> but > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue > >> to > >> > > > remind > >> > > > >>> > users > >> > > > >>> > >> to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > use > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need > to > >> > > > educate > >> > > > >>> > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > more > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > on > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy > >> and > >> > > fast > >> > > > >>> with > >> > > > >>> > >> lower > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > cost > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > than > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack > channel, > >> > > it'll > >> > > > >>> be the > >> > > > >>> > >> case > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > too. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also > goes > >> > down > >> > > > >>> with it > >> > > > >>> > >> > > though. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% > >> questions > >> > > > were > >> > > > >>> > >> > typically a > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > log > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this > >> > > before?". > >> > > > >>> Many > >> > > > >>> > of > >> > > > >>> > >> > them > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > never > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. > >> > > Situations > >> > > > >>> may > >> > > > >>> > >> have > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > changed > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the > community > >> > grow > >> > > > AND > >> > > > >>> > follow > >> > > > >>> > >> > good > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means > >> > > "include > >> > > > >>> and > >> > > > >>> > with > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Flink > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > China > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team". > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original > >> > > question > >> > > > on > >> > > > >>> > >> > user-zh's > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > low > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink > >> China > >> > > > >>> operation > >> > > > >>> > >> team > >> > > > >>> > >> > as > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > part > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned > well > >> > > enough > >> > > > >>> on > >> > > > >>> > >> ideas > >> > > > >>> > >> > and > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, > people > >> > > voted > >> > > > >>> +1 are > >> > > > >>> > >> all > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs** > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that > it's > >> > > gonna > >> > > > >>> be the > >> > > > >>> > >> main > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > question > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our > >> > > operation > >> > > > >>> team** > >> > > > >>> > >> > voted > >> > > > >>> > >> > > or > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we > communicated > >> to > >> > > the > >> > > > >>> them > >> > > > >>> > the > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > purpose > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > of > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, > >> > that's > >> > > > >>> > something > >> > > > >>> > >> we > >> > > > >>> > >> > > can > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take > >> Flink > >> > > > China > >> > > > >>> > >> > operation > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > team > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > as > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and > >> > encouraging > >> > > > >>> them to > >> > > > >>> > >> join > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > related > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing > >> list > >> > > from > >> > > > >>> now > >> > > > >>> > on. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert > Metzger > >> < > >> > > > >>> > >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations > >> regarding > >> > a > >> > > > chat > >> > > > >>> > group > >> > > > >>> > >> > with > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10k > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members! > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech > >> scene in > >> > > the > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the > >> > > community > >> > > > >>> grow > >> > > > >>> > AND > >> > > > >>> > >> > > follow > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > good > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are > >> doing > >> > > > user > >> > > > >>> > >> support > >> > > > >>> > >> > via > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult > >> to > >> > > move > >> > > > >>> people > >> > > > >>> > >> away > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > from > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down > >> > adoption > >> > > of > >> > > > >>> Flink > >> > > > >>> > >> in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > China. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay > >> with > >> > > > using > >> > > > >>> > >> mailing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > lists, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > or > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list > to > >> ask > >> > > > >>> > questions, > >> > > > >>> > >> but > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to > >> use > >> > > > mailing > >> > > > >>> > list > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on > mailing > >> > > lists? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh > doesn't > >> > > > support > >> > > > >>> > >> > searching. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service > for > >> > > user-zh > >> > > > >>> which > >> > > > >>> > >> > > supports > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are > not > >> > > > showing > >> > > > >>> up > >> > > > >>> > on > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Baidu. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to > >> > > improve > >> > > > >>> this. > >> > > > >>> > >> IMO, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > >> > > > >>> information. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for > >> > > > >>> technology-related > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > information? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in > >> China > >> > > > >>> finding > >> > > > >>> > help > >> > > > >>> > >> > when > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > they > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu < > >> > > > >>> imj...@gmail.com > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen > in > >> > the > >> > > > >>> > DingTalk. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list > >> to > >> > ask > >> > > > >>> > >> questions, > >> > > > >>> > >> > but > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to > >> use > >> > > > mailing > >> > > > >>> > list > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have > >> > > replies, > >> > > > >>> > >> although > >> > > > >>> > >> > in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > hours. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems > >> solved > >> > by > >> > > > >>> using > >> > > > >>> > >> mailing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh > >> doesn't > >> > > > >>> support > >> > > > >>> > >> > > searching. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service > for > >> > > user-zh > >> > > > >>> which > >> > > > >>> > >> > > supports > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are > >> not > >> > > > >>> showing up > >> > > > >>> > >> on > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to > >> > > improve > >> > > > >>> this. > >> > > > >>> > >> IMO, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > >> > > > >>> information. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < > >> > > > >>> > >> bowenl...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. > >> It's > >> > > > because > >> > > > >>> > most > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > questions > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > are > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has > >> close > >> > to > >> > > > >>> 10,000 > >> > > > >>> > >> > people > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > now. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, > >> announce > >> > > news > >> > > > >>> and > >> > > > >>> > >> > updates, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just > TERRIBLE > >> > for > >> > > > >>> > ask-answer > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > questions > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) > surely > >> not > >> > > > >>> > 10,000...) > >> > > > >>> > >> We > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > probably > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not > >> > really > >> > > > >>> > >> searchable, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > topics > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions > >> > without > >> > > > >>> evening > >> > > > >>> > >> doing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > any > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted > that > >> > group > >> > > > >>> chat > >> > > > >>> > and > >> > > > >>> > >> > > haven't > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel > the > >> > heat > >> > > in > >> > > > >>> the > >> > > > >>> > >> group > >> > > > >>> > >> > is > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > also > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but > it > >> > > still > >> > > > >>> exists > >> > > > >>> > >> > > nowadays > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async > >> > communication, > >> > > > >>> topic > >> > > > >>> > >> > focused, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > etc. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and > >> > > ask-answer > >> > > > >>> > should > >> > > > >>> > >> > > happen > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > in > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't > >> > > clarified > >> > > > >>> what > >> > > > >>> > >> that > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it > >> should > >> > > > work > >> > > > >>> > >> together > >> > > > >>> > >> > > with > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > our > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group > chat > >> and > >> > > > kind > >> > > > >>> of > >> > > > >>> > >> just > >> > > > >>> > >> > let > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > it > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time > >> to > >> > > > >>> reflect on > >> > > > >>> > >> how > >> > > > >>> > >> > we > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > should > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group > >> chat > >> > > > >>> should > >> > > > >>> > >> only be > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > used > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > for > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news > >> and > >> > > > >>> updates, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > live > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical > >> > > > discussions > >> > > > >>> > >> should > >> > > > >>> > >> > be > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of > >> the > >> > > > >>> DingTalk > >> > > > >>> > >> group > >> > > > >>> > >> > so > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert > >> > > Metzger < > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a > >> few > >> > > > >>> months old > >> > > > >>> > >> and > >> > > > >>> > >> > I > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the > >> DingTalk > >> > > group > >> > > > >>> (5000 > >> > > > >>> > >> ?), > >> > > > >>> > >> > I > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > would > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the > mailing > >> > list. > >> > > > >>> But I > >> > > > >>> > >> also > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated > technology > >> > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > >>> > last > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > century. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per > >> > month: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our > >> side > >> > to > >> > > > help > >> > > > >>> > >> adoption > >> > > > >>> > >> > > of > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the > >> mailing > >> > > list > >> > > > >>> > >> showing up > >> > > > >>> > >> > > on > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with > Flink? > >> If > >> > > not, > >> > > > >>> does > >> > > > >>> > it > >> > > > >>> > >> > > makes > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a > >> server/domain > >> > in > >> > > > >>> China? > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM > YuZhao > >> > Chan > >> > > < > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >
