There's now a PR (https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/676) and a preview available for this FLIP ( https://website-refresh.d193kg429zpv7e.amplifyapp.com/).
On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 8:45 AM Mohan, Deepthi <mdee...@amazon.com.invalid> wrote: > Matthias, Markos, Martijn, thank you for your feedback. > > Markos, I've addressed you feedback re: separating use cases from the > Flink capabilities. I think it is a positive change that will help new > users distinguish between the two. > Also attached screenshots for 'light mode'. I am personally partial to > dark mode, and several developers say they prefer dark mode vs light > generally. However, this is not a specific question I've posed to customers > regarding the Flink website. In addition, after talking to engineering, > I've been told it's not 2x the effort to introduce both modes on the > website and a toggle to switch between the two. For implementation, we > could start with one mode, without the toggle. > > Mattias, your comments about accessibility were very useful and helped us > to further improve the design. A UX designer (Kaushal, also new to the > community) helped evaluate the color and text size for accessibility. He > can respond to any specific questions that you may have about > accessibility. I did not quite get the related comment about "the menu > structure stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with > images". However, since it's not there in the current website I propose we > table this conversation for now. > > Martijn, thanks for your comment on accessibility. I hope some of your > concerns are addressed above in my response to Mattias and the screenshots > now attached to the FLIP. I have purposely kept documentation out of scope > due to the comments received in the previous discussion thread on this > topic [1]. We will also include links to the blog and GitHub repo in the > drop down under the getting started menu as well as include the links at > the bottom of the page (as seen in a few other Apache websites). > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8 > > Thanks, > Deepthi > > > > > On 7/23/23, 7:22 PM, "liu ron" <ron9....@gmail.com <mailto: > ron9....@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > > > > +1, > > > The dark mode looks very cool. > > > Best, > Ron > > > Matthias Pohl <matthias.p...@aiven.io.inva <mailto: > matthias.p...@aiven.io.inva>lid> 于2023年7月20日周四 15:45写道： > > > > I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points: > > > > - We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part > of > > the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes > in > > a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu > structure > > stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But > > nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in > the > > FLIP. > > > > - I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink > > documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change > to > > a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a > > similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are > there > > other reasons why the dark background is favorable? > > > > Best, > > Matthias > > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas > > <markos.sfi...@aiven.io.inva <mailto:markos.sfi...@aiven.io.inva>lid> > wrote: > > > > > +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi. > > > > > > The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they > achieve > > > the goal in general. > > > > > > A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following: > > > > > > [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink > documentation, > > I > > > would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the > 'dark > > > mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more > > > consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page > to > > > the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the > > > website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity > perspective > > > that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch > > > between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy > to > > > read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on > dark > > > background). > > > > > > [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website > has > > > use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical > > > characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed > > > correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone > new > > to > > > Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand > > > firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that > > make > > > Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above > the > > > 'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and > > easily > > > navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\ > > > > > > Thank you > > > Markos > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website > < > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website > > > > > [2] https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/ < > https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/> > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM Martijn Visser < > > martijnvis...@apache.org <mailto:martijnvis...@apache.org>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > +0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end: > > > > > > > > - Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's > > > > Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the > ASF > > > > rightfully emphasises. > > > > - "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink > > > documentation > > > > is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not > > the > > > > case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't > been > > > > concluded/implemented. > > > > - I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the > blog > > > > posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Martijn > > > > > > > > [1] > > > https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/ > <https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/> > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685 > < > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685 > > > > > > [3] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation > < > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org > <mailto:m...@apache.org>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler < > > ches...@apache.org <mailto:ches...@apache.org>> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote: > > > > > > > @Chesnay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your feedback. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your > > > > > feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate > as > > > each > > > > > change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion. > > > Therefore, > > > > > as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text > > > changes > > > > > for the pages mentioned in the FLIP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics > and > > > > > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is > focused > > > > only > > > > > on the main Flink website [2]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the > > > > website > > > > > “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure > > > *why* > > > > I > > > > > should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in > this > > > FLIP > > > > > helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need > to > > > > make > > > > > the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have > currently > > > > > proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s thoughts > on > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared > > > feedback > > > > > prior that I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together > by > > > > > developers.” Customers also point out other related Apache project > > > > > websites: [3] and [4] as having “modern” user design. The proposed > > > > redesign > > > > > in this FLIP will help address this feedback. Modernizing the look > > and > > > > feel > > > > > of the website will appeal to customers who are used to what they > > > > encounter > > > > > on other contemporary websites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure > > what > > > > the > > > > > diagram is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on > [2] > > > and > > > > > have said that the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart > > from > > > > > removing the diagram on the main page [2], the current FLIP does > > > propose > > > > > major changes to diagrams in the rest of website and we can discuss > > > them > > > > > separately as they become available. I’d like to keep the FLIP > > focused > > > > only > > > > > on the website redesign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in > [1], > > I > > > do > > > > > not want to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this > > FLIP, > > > my > > > > > proposal is to first work on the UX design as that gives us a good > > > > starting > > > > > point. We can use it as a framework to make iterative changes and > > > > > enhancements to diagrams and the actual website content > > incrementally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the > FLIP > > > > that > > > > > will give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the > main > > > > page, > > > > > What is Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8 < > https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8> > > > > > > > [2]https://flink.apache.org/ <https://flink.apache.org/> > > > > > > > [3] https://spark.apache.org/ <https://spark.apache.org/> > > > > > > > [4] https://kafka.apache.org/ <https://kafka.apache.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler" <ches...@apache.org > <mailto:ches...@apache.org> > > > > <mailto: > > > > > ches...@apache.org <mailto:ches...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the > organization. > > Do > > > > > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the > sender > > > and > > > > > know the content is safe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote: > > > > > > >> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our > > > > > conversations often comment that the website could do with a > redesign > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are > > > there > > > > > > > functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of > "I > > > > don't > > > > > > > like the way it looks"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What had they trouble with? Which information was > > > > > > > missing/unnecessary/too hard to find? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that > > new > > > > and > > > > > > > existing users can easily find information to understand what > > Flink > > > > is, > > > > > > > the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly > > understand > > > > its > > > > > > > value proposition/." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals > > are > > > > > > > achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a > > > > compressed > > > > > > > nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we > > throw > > > at > > > > > > > people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed > > > > > > > text/presentation/diagram changes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
