More question if you don't mind.
> 2.) Assuming sombody wants to do session replication (All
> Active) instead of (one Active and "n" backups) is there provision
> within the WADI api to plug in this stratergy?
>I'm giving this some thought in terms of SFSB support, I'm not aware of
>similar constraints in the EJB world...
>I guess we could relax this constraint in the web world, but I am not
>sure that I think that this is a good idea. Can you see a way to do this
>and maintain spec compliance and performance ?
> Active) instead of (one Active and "n" backups) is there provision
> within the WADI api to plug in this stratergy?
>I'm giving this some thought in terms of SFSB support, I'm not aware of
>similar constraints in the EJB world...
>I guess we could relax this constraint in the web world, but I am not
>sure that I think that this is a good idea. Can you see a way to do this
>and maintain spec compliance and performance ?
Is WADI designed primarily for Web?? (bcos u talked about being servlet spec compliant) and u also mention about SFSB support.
Can we abstract the Replication problem to a more higher level and have the two (or more if there is) stratergies as impls of the replication API that installs as a pluggin by the user.
We can abstract things like a ReplicationManager that handles/controls no of replicas etc.. and a ReplicatedSession which decides wether it's active or passive (backup) based on the parameters passed to the ReplicatedSessionFactory at create time from the ReplicationManager.
The ReplicationManager impl could be the stratergy that decides wether it maintains n of active replicas or 1 active and n backups or any other stratergy.
Also the ReplicatedSession could impl stratergies like in MemoryReplication or PassiveReplication (based on active or passive) or anything else. And PassiveReplication can be extended to file based, database backed (not recomended) or anything else.
If we open up the API and let the user choose the stratergy they want then we are delaying our concerns to the user level and allow them to make the decesion.
I am sure we cannot address every situation, and the user is the best to judge about there env.
But we can always provide some sensible stratergies and recomendations and use cases around them to make an informed decesion.
Then We can leave the decesion to the user about spec-complient/performance.
What do u think??
>If a request arrives at a secondary, primary and secondary swap roles
>and processing happens locally.
>If a request arrives on a node with no copy of the relevant session, it
>may be relocated to the primary, or the primary to it.
>and processing happens locally.
>If a request arrives on a node with no copy of the relevant session, it
>may be relocated to the primary, or the primary to it.
1. Do u plan to have an abstraction around the above concerns as well??
So we can have impls of different stratergies, So people can decide wether they want to relocate the primary or the request.
In case of a relocation of either request or session I assume u have hidden the impls behind an interface/API sort of thing so ppl can do different impls of the same stratergies or impl their own stratergy.
2. In the event of a primary and secondary swapping roles or having n of active replicas don't we need some sort of distributed locking mechanism.
I heard that in memory locking should be optimistic and storage backed replicas should be pessimistic locking.
I hope I haven't got the too mixed up :)
Can u please touch on this problem as my knoweldge is limited on this area.
Regards,
Rajith.
On 1/17/06, Jules Gosnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rajith Attapattu wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Some of these questions came up after reading the thread on totem.
> However I started the new thread so that searching is easy and also
> want distract the intense discussions on totem with out-of-topic
> questions.
>
> Jules Gosnel wrote
>
> >This is not something that is really considered a significant saving in
> >WADI (see my last posting's explanation of why you only want one
> >'active' copy of a session). WADI will keep session backups serialised,
> >to save resources being constantly expended deserialising session
> >backups that may never be accessed. I guess actually, you could consider
> >that WADI will do a lazy deserialisation in the case that you have
> >outlined, as primary and secondary copies will actually swap roles with
> >attendant serialisation/passivation and deserialisation/activation
> >coordinated by messages.
>
> >If you are running a reasonable sized cluster ( e.g. 30 nodes - it's all
> >relative) with a small number of backups configured ( e.g. 1), then, in
> >the case of a session affinity brekdown (due to the leaving of a
> >primary's node), you have a 1/30 chance that the request will hit the
> >primary, a 1/30 that you will hit the secondary and a 28/30 that you
> >will miss :-) So, you are right :-)
>
> So just to figure out if I understand this correctly.
>
> 1.) WADI only has one active and one-two backups at most (I assume the
> no of backups is configurable)
replication is under implementation at the moment. Any number of backups
should be configurable, but the more you have the less performant you
are. You trade off safety for speed.
>
> 2.) WADI is built up on the assumption of session affinity. So the
> probability of missing the primary and the secondary backup(s) goes
> up as the cluster grows according to your example
WADI will work without session affinity, however, as you would expect,
this will not perform as well as it might. If you switch on affinity,
you will drastically cut down the amount of request/session relocation
and most interactions should become local.
Switch off affinity, and of course, your chances of hitting a copy of
the session will go down. There are a fixed number of sessions and you
are increasing the number of nodes... If you are intending to use an lb
without affinity, then you should really reconsider. The costs are tiny
and the gains enormous. Affinity is a standard feature on any serious
HTTP LB.
>
> 3.) How does WADI handle a situation where there is no session affinity??
If a request lands on the primary, processing occurs locally.
If a request arrives at a secondary, primary and secondary swap roles
and processing happens locally.
If a request arrives on a node with no copy of the relevant session, it
may be relocated to the primary, or the primary to it.
>
> 4.) Have you compared the overhead of maintaining session affinity vs
> having R replicas (all-Active) to service the client.
I have worked on impls using both approaches and am satisfied that my
most recent approach will be the most performant.
>
> >If, however, you did your deserialisation of replicants up front and
> thus avoided further messages when a secondary was hit, by maintaining
> >all copies 'active' (I think you would not be spec compliant if you
> did this),
>
> 1.) What do u mean by spec here ?? Are u talking about the WADI spec?
There is no WADI spec :-) - I'm talking about the servlet spec -
specifically :
SRV 7.7.2 - "Within an application marked as distributable, all requests
that are part of a session must be handled by one Java Virtual Machine1
( JVM ) at a time." and "Containers must notify any session attributes
implementing the HttpSessionActivationListener during migration of a
session. They must notify listeners of passivation prior to
serialization of a session, and of activation after deserialization of a
session."
These two constraints make it, IMHO, much more difficult to try
implementing any system that maintains multiple 'active', or 'primary'
copies of a session. The system needs to be absolutely clear where the
single 'active' copy is at any one time, in order to remain compliant.
To ensure that activation/passivation semantics work OK, only this
session may be activated, whilst the other 'secondary' copies are
passivated. By leaving the secondaries in serialised form, you save
further cycles and arrive at WADI's current design.
>
> 2.) Assuming sombody wants to do session replication (All
> Active) instead of (one Active and "n" backups) is there provision
> within the WADI api to plug in this stratergy?
I'm giving this some thought in terms of SFSB support, I'm not aware of
similar constraints in the EJB world...
I guess we could relax this constraint in the web world, but I am not
sure that I think that this is a good idea. Can you see a way to do this
and maintain spec compliance and performance ?
>
> If u remeber we talked about extention points within WADI.
>
> 1.) Is there a doc that describes WADI architecture
Not as yet, just a website with various resources hanging of it. WADI is
still relatively young. The best source of architecture info is the
conversations that we have been having.
>
> 2.) Is there a doc that describes these extention points and how to do
> it?? (Looking for a little more info than the API doc)
WADI is put together using Spring. You just check out the javadoc and
plug the pojos together. A lot of what we have been talking about is
architectural design and not implemented (although the primary/secondary
stuff is all in and working).
regards,
Jules
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rajith.
>
--
"Open Source is a self-assembling organism. You dangle a piece of
string into a super-saturated solution and a whole operating-system
crystallises out around it."
/**********************************
* Jules Gosnell
* Partner
* Core Developers Network (Europe)
*
* www.coredevelopers.net
*
* Open Source Training & Support.
**********************************/
