"At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it)."
By the way Josh. I totally agree with alot of what your saying and always appreciate your help. Also was not expecting anyone to build the community for me. But it is not about shame/pride. Someone just called a vote on this, and a few people other then myself -1 ed the vote. It was very disheartening to go start writing the report July 2nd, and just happen upon another incubator convo about ending the gossip project. I hang around the apache community a lot and anecdotally I know the status of a number of podlings. But I decided to around some other podlings, there was one that started in the incubator in 2013 and has not had a commit for 7 months. It feels a bit arbitrary to me, maybe I am biased maybe not. On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Josh Elser <els...@apache.org> wrote: > I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and > shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on > general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped). > > I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here to > build communities. We're not. > > We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities. > We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software > lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal > challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human > mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or > attracting new people. > > We're not here to build the community for you. > > At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a > podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally > because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in > saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all > to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github > would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator > again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it). > > On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > >> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building >> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of >> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays >> people to work on that thing all the time. >> >> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a >> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are >> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report >> due >> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the >> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can >> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not. >> >> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and >> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the >> podling. >> Great job "building communities". >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <els...@apache.org> wrote: >> >> Hey Ed, >>> >>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator >>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you >>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there >>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants. >>> >>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks >>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the >>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually >>> producing software. >>> >>> +1 from me >>> >>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote: >>> >>> All, >>>> >>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator. >>>> Thank >>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down, >>>> much of this falls on me. >>>> >>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and >>>> be >>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following >>>> reasons: >>>> >>>> Infrastructure: >>>> >>>> AAA >>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I >>>> got >>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to >>>> google >>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost >>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do. >>>> >>>> Releases: >>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn >>>> release:clean >>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign >>>> up >>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign >>>> of >>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven >>>> steps, >>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote >>>> on >>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to >>>> an >>>> svn directory. >>>> >>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and >>>> other >>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed. >>>> For >>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net >>>> result >>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release >>>> is >>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process >>>> and >>>> I >>>> only did it because it is the only way. >>>> >>>> Community: >>>> Apache incubator is about building communities. >>>> Mailing list >>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to >>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it. >>>> >>>> Jira >>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users >>>> have >>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I >>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and >>>> attracting >>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having >>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with >>>> that. >>>> >>>> GIT >>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge >>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and >>>> merge button) >>>> >>>> Updating the site: >>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much >>>> like the release process) >>>> >>>> Reports >>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at >>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never >>>> great >>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically >>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every >>>> month category. >>>> >>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, >>>> I >>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the >>>> incubator >>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another >>>> huge >>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code >>>> review. >>>> >>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache >>>> TLPs >>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant >>>> thing >>>> for some.... >>>> >>>> So lets get out of here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>
