On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 1:40 PM, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 22 November 2012 18:03, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > <ot> > > For US folks out there on the interwebs, Happy Thanksgving day to you > > all. In this context, I am thankful for this community of like and > > open-minded software gurus, tinkerers, and bit wranglers. > > </ot> > > > > I find it helpful to think about this in two parts: process and labeling > > (or what version to label code). This is my perfect version world: > > > > Process: > > > > I like to release one version N that includes @[D|d]eprecated code with a > > comment that states the EOL policy, e.g. "This class/method will be > removed > > in version A.B" *AND* the doc MUST contain a pointer to what to do > instead. > > > > The simplest process is to deprecate in version N and remove in the next > > (major) version N+1, e.g. 4.2 and 5.0. > > > > Labeling: > > > > Strictly, speaking I like API breakage in "major" releases only: 4.0, > 5.0, > > 6.0 and so on. It's just simpler to think about even if it leads to > > "version inflation". When I pick up a new major version, I know what I am > > in for. In Commons-land, this is also an opportunity to offer co-location > > as a feature by renaming the package from o.a.project to o.a.project2, > > o.a.project3, and so on. This is what Commons Lang did for version 3. The > > POM AID should also be renamed at this time. > > > > I would only deprecate in a minor release (4.3), not a maintenance > release > > (4.2.3). That's just because I don't expect surprises in maintenance > > releases, I expect a maint. release to be used in a drop and go fashion > > without deprecated warnings popping up. IOW, no new APIs in a maint > release. > > > > HTTP Components > > > > How does this match up with this project? What's a good pragmatic > approach? > > > > Well, now is a good time to talk about this since HttpClient will offer a > > new API. > > > > Today I can co-locate (I'm not sure what to call this feature) > HttpClient 3 > > and 4 because, this project is now a TLP and has a different package > name. > > HC4 is a completely different product from HC3, whereas what we are > discussing now is a gradual evolution. >
Technically yes but not to customers, it's still "HttpClient", whether it is "Apache Commons HC" or "Apache HttpComponents HC". > > > So my first question is: do we want to 'break' co-location for the new > > version or keep it? Do we want HC Next to live next to HC 4.2? > > > > The other way to ask this is: why would you not want to co-locate v4 and > > vNext. > > Co-location - i.e. allowing both to play nicely in the same > classloader - is only necessary if there are systems that *need* both. > And that happens all the time when you are dealing with our kinds of products. For example, my product at work depends on many third party libraries like Apache CXF, Eclipse Jetty, our internal products, and lots of other FOSS jars. The last thing I need is some headache because HC decides to change its API and keep its packaging the same and another dependency upgrades to the latest. You have to think about this like a forest of trees. The dependencies for us are always more than one level deep. We depend on components that depend on other components and so on. > For example, JMeter uses both HC3 and HC4, but there's no reason for > it to use HC4 and HC4-new together. > JMeter will be amended as necessary to be able to use the updated API. > See above, I need to consider a whole ecosystem that makes up a large stack of 80+ third party dependencies. For example, Apache CXF is one dependency and it depends on a ton of third party libs. > > > All of this leads me to think that the new HC API should be in a version > 5 > > with a new package name. > > Changing package name (and AID) does guarantee that the different > versions can co-exist. > However it means a lot more changes to source code. > Changing an import reference from version N to version N+1 is not a lot of work. > > With gradual introduction and removal of methods it's possible to phase > updates. > However, if HC5 were to both introduce useful new methods and remove > deprecated ones this would make the update process slightly more > involved. > > > From experience in a real world app server, I can testified that having > > Commons Lang 2 and 3 co-located is a genius feature which has avoid us > > countless headaches. > > As I already wrote, Commons Lang is a very different proposition. > Headaches (jar hell) come from having multiple independent > dependencies on Lang in the same classloader and not being able to > update them all. > If there is only one dependency on Lang, that could be updated without > problems. > > If there are genuine use cases where multiple independent parts of a > system all depend on HC4, then yes, it might be worth striving for > strict binary compatibility. > But otherwise I think it's probably unnecessary overhead for HC4. > > As to whether the next version should be 4.x or 5.0, I don't particularly > mind. > A major version bump may make sense at this point. > The overall point of all of this is that you cannot control or predict how other products use our jars. Gary > > Gobble, Gobble, > > Gary > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:27 AM, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On 22 November 2012 13:46, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote: > >> > Folks > >> > > >> > There are lots of changes planned for the 4.3 series that will require > >> > many of the old implementation classes to be deprecated in favor of > >> > newer ones with a different API. While the amount of deprecated code > >> > will be moderate in HttpCore there will be LOTS of it in HttpClient. > We > >> > should start thinking how we want to go about deprecated code in the > 4.x > >> > code line. > >> > > >> > (1) We could keep deprecated functionality indefinitely to maximize > >> > compatibility. In this case we should start thinking about 5.0 and API > >> > incompatible changes soonish as we have already accumulated quite a > lot > >> > of deprecated legacy code. > >> > > >> > (2) Alternatively, we could be selectively removing deprecated code > >> > after a certain number of feature releases (two feature releases) and > a > >> > certain grace period (approximately two years) and keep 5.0 for some > >> > really major changes such as HTTP/2.0 or HTTP/1.1bis. By the way, this > >> > is what we have done about stuff deprecated in 4.0 GA. > >> > > >> > I am leaning more towards option 2 and therefore would like to proceed > >> > with removal of code deprecated in the 4.1 release from the 4.3 branch > >> > (both HttpCore and HttpClient). > >> > > >> > What are your thoughts? What would be your preference? > >> > >> Option 2 breaks binary compatibility, so is not suitable for all > >> libraries (e.g. it would not be suitable for Commons components, which > >> are likely to be referenced multiple times in the same classpath). > >> > >> However, in the case of HC, it seems very unlikely that a single > >> classpath will contain multiple independent dependencies on HC. > >> > >> So Option 2 seems the best way forward in this case. > >> > >> > Oleg > >> > > >> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@hc.apache.org > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@hc.apache.org > >> > > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@hc.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@hc.apache.org > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org > > JUnit in Action, 2nd Ed: <http://goog_1249600977>http://bit.ly/ECvg0 > > Spring Batch in Action: <http://s.apache.org/HOq>http://bit.ly/bqpbCK > > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > > Home: http://garygregory.com/ > > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@hc.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@hc.apache.org > > -- E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org JUnit in Action, 2nd Ed: <http://goog_1249600977>http://bit.ly/ECvg0 Spring Batch in Action: <http://s.apache.org/HOq>http://bit.ly/bqpbCK Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com Home: http://garygregory.com/ Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
