Hi all,
Quick recap from the June 29 labels sync [2 <https://youtu.be/arQVMl-fnxM>],
and a call for review
on the spec PR [1 <https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750>].
We're converging on the read path. The representation is stable
-- the consolidated `labels: { table, columns }` shape has landed
on the PR -- so the most useful next step is reviewer engagement
on the PR itself. PMC and committer eyes especially welcome to
flag anything still needed on the read representation.
What the sync covered:
- Hot-path discipline softened: Ryan Blue and Daniel Weeks
pushed back on latency requirements in the spec - latency is
implementation-defined, and IRC sets no latency requirements
elsewhere. The design doc now frames this as implementation
guidance, not a normative requirement.
- E-Tag unchanged: the spec defines the minimum for E-Tag
invalidation (table metadata). Whether catalogs fold labels
into their E-Tag logic is left to implementation.
- Read path first: labels stay scoped to flat, attribute-level
metadata exchange on LoadTableResponse -- the catalog surfaces
its context, the consumer reads it. Same sequencing precedent
as UDFs (list/load before CRUD); the write path (CRUD) is the
natural follow-up and shouldn't block read-path review.
- Structured tags -- follow-up track: a richer structured model
(identity, lifecycle, inheritance, cross-catalog semantics) is
a real need for catalogs with first-class tag entities. A flat
read view can't reconstruct that richness -- and for the read
path it shouldn't try to; flat is the right shape here, and a
structured layer builds on top. Prashant Singh raised this
from the consumer side (comparisons to Gravitino). It's the
focus of a dedicated follow-up sync rather than something to
resolve on the read path.
Next steps:
- Read path: review the spec PR [1
<https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750>] -- this is the ask.
- Structured tags + column-level policy management (Sung Yun):
dedicated follow-up sync, date to follow.
Thanks to everyone who joined.
Andrei
[1] https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750
[2] https://youtu.be/arQVMl-fnxM
On Mon, Jun 29, 2026 at 5:32 PM Prashant Singh <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hey Folks,
> This meeting is not open to everyone ? Have been waiting for some time in
> the waiting room
> Can someone let me in ?
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2026 at 7:59 AM Andrei Tserakhau via dev <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Next labels sync is scheduled for Monday, June 29, 2026, 8am PT /
>> 5pm CET. Earlier US-time slot to accommodate European attendees.
>>
>> Meet link: [https://meet.google.com/ezz-bvff-wjt]
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> - Updates since last sync (May 28)
>> - Labels / Tag boundary, topic from EJ Wang
>> - Write-path sketch walk-through
>> - ETag-based caching and concurrency (new topic, surfaced at the
>> recent IRC catalog community sync)
>> - Path to VOTE on the read API
>>
>> Concrete changes in the proposal [1] and spec PR [2] since the
>> May 28 recap:
>>
>> - Schema consolidated: labels and column-labels merged into a
>> single Labels object with table and columns sub-properties
>> (per Daniel Weeks' May 28 review). Resolves the "two fields
>> representing the same thing" feedback on the PR. JSON example
>> and appendix updated.
>> - Hot-Path Discipline added: LoadTableResponse latency MUST NOT
>> increase due to labels; how catalogs meet this is
>> implementation-defined (caching, freshness trade-offs,
>> filtering). Added in response to Christian Thiel's design doc
>> comment.
>> - Governance scope clarified: labels carry context, not
>> enforcement decisions. Enforcement semantics and policy vocabulary
>> live
>> in other spec layers (Read Restrictions, PR #13879 [3]).
>> - Open Questions cleaned up: write path summarized with ETag-based
>> optimistic concurrency + two-class distinction (catalog-managed
>> vs externally-managed keys); structured classification layer
>> reframed as the future authoring companion to labels as the
>> read surface.
>>
>> Goal on Monday: walk through the updated proposal, work through
>> remaining concerns on the read API, and identify what's needed to
>> move toward a VOTE.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrei
>>
>> [1]
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aj-6JlfBiMYEEVtNuh5WLMOrRQiMCcyYUGbouPM4hXI/edit
>> [2] https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750
>> [3] https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/13879
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2026 at 3:56 AM EJ Wang <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Andrei for the recap. I want to clarify one point on the
>>> labels-vs-Tag boundary, mostly to avoid having the labels discussion
>>> pre-decide questions that belong in the parallel Tag discussion.
>>>
>>> I agree with the use cases motivating labels: exposing catalog-managed
>>> context such as ownership, domain, cost attribution, classification hints,
>>> and semantic hints in REST responses can be useful for engines and clients.
>>> The part I am less sure about is whether those use cases require a separate
>>> Labels concept in the spec, or whether they should be modeled as projected
>>> metadata from a structured Tag/classification model.
>>>
>>> My concern is dependency direction. If we introduce labels as a flat
>>> generic primitive first, and later add structure for identity, lifecycle,
>>> allowed values, inheritance, field-id attachment, visibility, and reverse
>>> lookup, then we may end up reconstructing a Tag model around labels. That
>>> feels less clear than defining the structured model directly and allowing
>>> catalogs to project the relevant assignments into REST responses where
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> In other words, I don't think the interesting question is only whether
>>> labels should be flat or structured. I think the question is whether labels
>>> should be a separate primitive at all, or whether the read-response use
>>> cases can be covered by a projected view of structured tag/classification
>>> assignments.
>>>
>>> Where I'd be especially careful is the phrase that tags are
>>> "catalog-internal structured concepts." I agree that the full Tag
>>> discussion is outside the scope of Labels V1, but I would not want Labels
>>> V1 to pre-decide that structured tagging/classification semantics are only
>>> catalog-internal and not an IRC concept. That is exactly the separate
>>> question being explored in the Tag thread.
>>>
>>> The factoring I'd prefer to evaluate is:
>>>
>>> - Tag (structured) classification: authoring, lifecycle, identity,
>>> field-id attachment, inheritance, visibility, and lookup semantics
>>> - REST response projection: optional metadata returned to clients,
>>> potentially derived from structured tag assignments
>>> - read-restrictions: enforcement result delivered to engines
>>>
>>> That framing may reduce the need for a separate Labels primitive while
>>> still preserving the read-response use cases that motivated the labels
>>> proposal.
>>>
>>> I realize this may be a bigger factoring question than Labels V1
>>> intended to answer, but I think it is worth making explicit before the two
>>> threads diverge. If the community wants one logical concept rather than
>>> both labels and tags, I think we should at least evaluate the direction
>>> where the structured Tag/classification model is the source of truth and
>>> lightweight REST response metadata is a projection from it, before
>>> standardizing labels as an independent primitive.
>>>
>>> -ej
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2026 at 11:53 AM Andrei Tserakhau via dev <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Recap from the dedicated labels sync held on May 28, 2026
>>>> (recording [1]).
>>>>
>>>> Summary of the discussion:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Strong consensus to land the read API first, with the write API
>>>> as a separate follow-up proposal (Ryan, Sung, Kevin, Christian
>>>> aligned). Christian raised a concern that the write half could
>>>> lag behind (Trino views precedent); to address this, the
>>>> proposal will document the write-path direction alongside the
>>>> read API.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Labels remain flat key-value pairs, no internal structure.
>>>> Kubernetes labels precedent invoked — flat shape, conventions
>>>> via well-known prefixes, no spec-defined vocabulary.
>>>> Namespace-as-attribute (raised by Uladzimir Makaranka, Polaris)
>>>> discussed and set aside in favor of prefix conventions.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Labels-vs-Tag boundary: labels are the wire-protocol mechanism
>>>> for cross-catalog metadata exchange (this proposal); tags are
>>>> catalog-internal structured concepts (Snowflake, UC, Polaris
>>>> each have their own shape). Standardizing Tag itself as a
>>>> first-class spec entity is a separate effort, not in scope for
>>>> V1. EJ Wang's parallel Tag proposal on dev@ [2] is in that
>>>> direction.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Governance scope: Prashant Singh raised concerns about
>>>> positioning labels as a governance protocol — provenance,
>>>> identity mapping across IDPs, inheritance semantics. Room
>>>> aligned that labels are broader than governance — semantic
>>>> metadata exchange is the load-bearing case; governance remains
>>>> a valid use case among many, and whether to use labels for
>>>> governance is a catalog-level decision rather than a spec
>>>> mandate. Policy decisions and enforcement live in read
>>>> restrictions (PR #13879 [3]) — a parallel and complementary
>>>> track.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Write API shape converging on an independent CRUD endpoint
>>>> (UpdateLabels-style verb) with a transactional path for atomic
>>>> table+label operations at create/alter time. Two-class
>>>> distinction (catalog-authored vs externally-managed labels)
>>>> reaffirmed; Ryan noted not all labels should be editable via
>>>> CRUD since many are produced by the catalog through inheritance,
>>>> classification, or automated paths.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Bulk APIs surfaced as a real need for both read (inverted index
>>>> — finding tables/columns matching given labels) and write
>>>> (applying labels at scale, classifier batch operations). Scoped
>>>> for inclusion in the write API proposal.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Pattern for adding new first-class REST concepts (labels, UDFs,
>>>> indexes, etc.): independent CRUD endpoint per concept, paired
>>>> with a transactional path for atomic operations alongside table
>>>> create/alter. Useful reference shape for future spec additions.
>>>>
>>>> Post-sync follow-ups already in motion:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Hot-path discipline added to the proposal in response to
>>>> Christian Thiel's doc comment: LoadTableResponse latency MUST
>>>> NOT increase due to labels; how catalogs meet this is
>>>> implementation-defined (caching, freshness trade-offs,
>>>> filtering). Capability negotiation — parallel to the work on
>>>> PR #13879 [3] — is a future direction.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Use case split (high-confidence cross-catalog: semantic, domain,
>>>> classification, sensitivity vs platform-specific: owner,
>>>> principals, anything identity-bound) agreed after offline
>>>> follow-up with Prashant; will be reflected in the next proposal
>>>> revision.
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> A separate [DISCUSS] thread will land the substrate framing
>>>> publicly.
>>>>
>>>> Next sync approximately three / four weeks out. Tentative agenda:
>>>> labels/Tag boundary update, write-path sketch walk-through, path
>>>> to VOTE on the read API.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone who joined and to those continuing to engage
>>>> on the design doc [4] and spec PR #15750 [5].
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Andrei
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://youtu.be/P4NOQASNtPA
>>>> [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/r5r3vpmrfy9wmmb4sdybwcjz1c4wld5b
>>>> [3] https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/13879
>>>> [4]
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aj-6JlfBiMYEEVtNuh5WLMOrRQiMCcyYUGbouPM4hXI/edit
>>>> [5] https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2026 at 12:12 AM Andrei Tserakhau <
>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quick update on this on:
>>>>> we'll cover this on the Dedicated Sync this Thursday (10-11am US /
>>>>> 7-8pm CET). Thanks to Daniel Weeks for getting it on the calendar.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time labels was on the sync was 2026-04-15. Plenty of productive
>>>>> offline discussion since then, mostly in the gdoc comment threads. Thanks
>>>>> to everyone who engaged:
>>>>>
>>>>> - *Daniel Weeks* — for the IRC-spec-vs-table-spec framing that now
>>>>> anchors the Alternatives section
>>>>> - *Fokko Driesprong* — for challenging motivation on the
>>>>> cost-based defense and driving the ownership reframe
>>>>> - *Yufei Gu* — for the structure debate that landed us on the
>>>>> split shape
>>>>> - *Sung Yun* — for the early consumption-pattern and addressing
>>>>> questions
>>>>> - *Maninder Parmar* — for the properties-relationship probing
>>>>> - *Christian Thiel* — for pushing on the write API direction
>>>>>
>>>>> Concrete changes in-doc since April:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Problem Statement reframed around catalog-owned metainformation
>>>>> as the load-bearing concept.
>>>>> - Alternatives Considered rewritten with the
>>>>> IRC-spec-vs-table-spec boundary instead of cost arguments.
>>>>> - Structure debate closed on a split shape: labels (flat k/v at
>>>>> the table level, k8s-style) + column-labels (array with field-id).
>>>>> Labels type itself is flat — no internal structure. Same shape
>>>>> applies on LoadViewResponse and namespaces.
>>>>> - CRUD companion as a second tab in the same gdoc — UpdateLabels
>>>>> REST verb, two-class distinction for catalog-managed vs
>>>>> externally-managed
>>>>> keys, optimistic concurrency with ETags.
>>>>> - Working Trino prototype at
>>>>> https://github.com/laskoviymishka/irc-labels/pull/1 — native ALTER
>>>>> TABLE ... SET LABEL DDL translating end-to-end.
>>>>>
>>>>> Parallel work to flag: EJ Wang's first-class Tag concept
>>>>> <https://lists.apache.org/thread/r5r3vpmrfy9wmmb4sdybwcjz1c4wld5b>
>>>>> proposal on dev@. We've agreed to coordinate as paired proposals —
>>>>> Tag as a separate first-class REST concept, labels as the lower-level
>>>>> attachment substrate. Both efforts share the cross-cutting interop
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Goal on Thursday is to walk through the current state, confirm the
>>>>> split-shape lands cleanly, and identify what's needed to move toward a
>>>>> VOTE
>>>>> on the read API. Anyone reading along is welcome to join.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc (current state):
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aj-6JlfBiMYEEVtNuh5WLMOrRQiMCcyYUGbouPM4hXI/edit
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2026 at 9:35 PM Andrei Tserakhau <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Ryan!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your point about avoiding first-class metadata requirements is
>>>>>> exactly the design principle here. Labels let each catalog surface what
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> knows without the spec dictating what catalogs must track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To build on this, I put together a POC showing the approach works
>>>>>> across the ecosystem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Key design principles that held up in practice:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - No new requirements on catalogs. Labels are optional in the
>>>>>> response. A catalog that doesn't serve labels returns the same response
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Catalog-scoped, not table state. Every catalog we tried already has
>>>>>> internal metadata separate from Iceberg properties — Polaris has
>>>>>> internalProperties, UC has uc_properties, Lakekeeper has namespace
>>>>>> properties in PostgreSQL. Labels just give this existing metadata a
>>>>>> standard way through the protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - No property overriding. Labels are explicitly separate from table
>>>>>> properties. Properties configure behavior, labels describe context.
>>>>>> Engines
>>>>>> know which is which.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What built:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Spec change: https://github.com/apache/iceberg/pull/15750
>>>>>> - PyIceberg client:
>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/iceberg-python/pull/3191
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Catalog implementations:
>>>>>> - Polaris: https://github.com/apache/polaris/pull/4048 (labels from
>>>>>> internalProperties)
>>>>>> - Unity Catalog OSS:
>>>>>> https://github.com/unitycatalog/unitycatalog/pull/1417 (labels from
>>>>>> uc_properties)
>>>>>> - Lakekeeper: https://github.com/lakekeeper/lakekeeper/pull/1676
>>>>>> (labels from namespace properties)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full demo: https://github.com/laskoviymishka/irc-labels
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Three catalogs, two languages (Java + Rust), 40-95 lines each. The
>>>>>> pattern is the same everywhere, each catalog already has internal
>>>>>> metadata
>>>>>> that doesn't belong in table properties. Labels give it a standard way
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> through the protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Polaris implementation also addresses
>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/polaris/issues/3222 - the community has
>>>>>> been asking for a way to surface business metadata alongside table loads.
>>>>>> Labels solve this without adding any requirements beyond an optional
>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beyond ownership and classification, the demo also shows labels
>>>>>> enabling AI agent table selection (agents reason about tables using
>>>>>> semantic labels instead of guessing from column names) and governance via
>>>>>> trusted engine (ClickHouse reading sensitivity labels to auto-generate
>>>>>> masking policies).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy to discuss the spec design or any of the implementation details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 11:25 PM Ryan Blue <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that this is a reasonable way to solve some persistent
>>>>>>> issues that we've seen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many catalogs track additional metadata that is not part of the
>>>>>>> table spec (or others) like "owner", and right now there is no way to
>>>>>>> exchange or share that information. I'm also hesitant to start
>>>>>>> including it
>>>>>>> as first-class metadata because that puts additional requirements on
>>>>>>> catalogs that may not align. For instance, Tabular had no concept of a
>>>>>>> table "owner" and instead used default grants at the schema level. I
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> that this solution allows catalogs to provide information in a generic
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> that doesn't add requirements in the REST spec. And it is an
>>>>>>> alternative to
>>>>>>> overriding table properties with catalog-managed information, which I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> is an anti-pattern.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, Andrei! I think this is a good idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2026 at 2:04 PM Andrei Tserakhau via dev <
>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> `LoadTableResponse` returns table metadata — schema, snapshots,
>>>>>>>> file locations — but catalogs have operational context about tables
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> has no standard place to go: cost attribution, ownership, governance
>>>>>>>> hints,
>>>>>>>> semantic metadata. Right now catalogs have two options:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Properties — durable, commit-versioned table state. Good for
>>>>>>>> persistent metadata; wrong for ephemeral catalog context.
>>>>>>>> 2. Custom fields — catalog-specific extensions with no
>>>>>>>> interoperability. Each catalog invents its own structure; engines have
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> basis to read them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The community has already identified this gap. Polaris opened an
>>>>>>>> issue [1] requesting a standard extension point in the IRC protocol for
>>>>>>>> catalog-managed metadata. Two earlier threads [2][3] explored
>>>>>>>> column-level
>>>>>>>> metadata, though in the context of table format changes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We propose adding an optional `labels` field to `LoadTableResponse`
>>>>>>>> for catalog-managed metadata. Labels are string key-value pairs
>>>>>>>> generated
>>>>>>>> per-request from the catalog's internal systems; nothing is written to
>>>>>>>> table files. Engines may use or ignore them entirely. Labels give
>>>>>>>> catalog
>>>>>>>> providers a standard channel to surface context to any client without
>>>>>>>> bilateral custom integrations for every catalog-engine pair.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Details:
>>>>>>>> - GitHub Issue: apache/iceberg#15521
>>>>>>>> - Design Document: [4]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please review the proposal and share your feedback.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]: https://github.com/apache/polaris/issues/3222
>>>>>>>> [2]:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/vwrc3m534gfyfjnsfflwtgkg158yzrb4
>>>>>>>> [3]:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/yflg8w1h87qgwc4s3qtog4l8nx8nk8m0
>>>>>>>> [4]:
>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aj-6JlfBiMYEEVtNuh5WLMOrRQiMCcyYUGbouPM4hXI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
