Oleg, I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting. пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[email protected]>: > > Oleg, > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers > once again. > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion. > > Sincerely, > Dmitriy Pavlov > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[email protected]>: > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their > > input is needed. > > > > -- > > Denis > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Dmitry, > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. > > We > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were > > pointed > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with > > healthy > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members > > > as > > > > well. > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira > > > > issue created. > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to > > > > keep forwarding. > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[email protected]>: > > > > > > > > > Dmitry, > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to? > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[email protected]>: > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded? > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira > > > > > removal > > > > > > does not make any sense for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all > > > activity > > > > > from > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not > > useful > > > > to > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all > > community > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list. > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[email protected]>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful. > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails. > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev > > > list > > > > > > should > > > > > > > be human-only. > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and > > > > community > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much > > > > tickets > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we > > accumulate > > > > > > > generated > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, > > > provided > > > > > > that > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as > > > generated > > > > > > > stuff, > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during > > > > > incubation > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. > > > Splitting > > > > > > > message > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these > > > > > > messages - > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC > > proposed > > > > > > > solution > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - > > > "I > > > > do > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters > > > > these > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are > > expected > > > to > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, > > find > > > > it > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well > > > ... > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find > > these > > > > > > > generated > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter. > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help? > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list. > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list. > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list. > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these > > points. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot. > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be > > notified > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > updates. > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov < > > > [email protected] > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in > > > > future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and > > just > > > > > > > provided > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor > > community > > > > > > health. > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is > > > > > > reasonable > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, > > > > JIRA > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > remain here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, > > > then > > > > we > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process. > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it. > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no > > > > > openness > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots. > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the > > > > emails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the > > once, > > > > who > > > > > > > spent > > > > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it. > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among > > the > > > > > flood > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > spam > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA > > notifications, > > > > you > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing > > > list, > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify > > > > > > filtering, > > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from > > bots, > > > > you > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate. > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the > > > filter > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into > > > the > > > > > > inbox. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the > > > > > > development. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their > > > > > > development > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner: > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite > > > > > development > > > > > > > > easy > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce > > > > > important > > > > > > > > > > features > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the > > > list? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov < > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages > > to a > > > > > > > separate > > > > > > > > > > > mailing > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones). > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute > > > mess > > > > > > with > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > ability > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because > > > > > > messages > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search > > > > results. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is > > waisting > > > > > > > > everybody's > > > > > > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the > > > separation > > > > > of > > > > > > > > emails > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, > > and > > > > then > > > > > > PMC > > > > > > > > > chair > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from > > > Git > > > > > > > repos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov < > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a > > > solution. > > > > > > First, > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and > > > my > > > > > > > dev-list > > > > > > > > > > > emails > > > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated > > > emails > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > overall > > > > > > > > > > > > flow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important > > > > things > > > > > - > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that > > > > > generated > > > > > > > > > > nightmare? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone > > agrees > > > > with > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > > > far > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about > > > importance. > > > > > When > > > > > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be > > > important > > > > > > topic > > > > > > > > > > > requiring > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most > > > likely > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > either a > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In > > other > > > > > > words - > > > > > > > > > > average > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual > > messages > > > > and > > > > > is > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not > > > > > important > > > > > > > > > > > information > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git > > > > > > messages > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > list? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov < > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not > > needed > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > Apache > > > > > > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest. > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov < > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind > > > of > > > > > > daily > > > > > > > > > > digest? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / > > > > > updates > > > > > > > > during > > > > > > > > > > > last > > > > > > > > > > > > 24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov < > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA > > > > issues > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other > > > people > > > > > are > > > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project. You always can comment if it is > > not > > > > the > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > > > > approach, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates > > > JIRA > > > > > > (as 1 > > > > > > > > > JIRA > > > > > > > > > > > 1..* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR), > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]б> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey > > > Kuznetsov < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very > > > > > useful, I > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from > > > > > GitBox > > > > > > & > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > PRs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related > > > > mails > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
-- Best regards, Ivan Pavlukhin
