Hi... I gave it a deep thought in the train on the way back and while preparing and having dinner and then watching Seinfeld :D
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Minto van der Sluis <[email protected]> wrote: > I am impressed. This is very interesting. > Totally agree, in Hippo we also started investigating using the same editor to see how we make it easy for developers and non-developers making changes in some of an already deployed Hippo CMS based web application artifacts We didn't make much progress yet but my colleagues mention that the editor is very promising > > Since I seem to have fused the idea behind an online IDE, maybe I should > elaborate a bit more about my vision. > > My vision is not just about an online IDE. There are already some out > there as already mentioned on the ML. Maybe some of you remember Eclipse > E4 [1]. If I recall correctly it also supported sort of and online > browser based IDE. An IDE is mostly for developers. As a developer why > would I use and online editor if I can have a full blown client side app > like Eclipse. Where's the added value? > Additionally I found another editor, Orion [1], IDK if Dan already pointed to it or not > > I see an environment that's more or less for none developers. If I put > it in perspective with Maurizio's work it allows the user to create new > objects, properties and actions through menu options (point and click). > So without coding. Hence there is no need to see code in this phase. The > question then becomes how to create actions without code. I haven't > sorted this one out yet, that's why I see it as a prototyping tool. > Well, I think we can take the approach of "Eating our own dog's food" that is the Domain model here is the programming model itself and hence users can add new Domain Model Classes/Entities and methods Maybe a visual design tool can be of a more worth in this case than defining the model in Java or a programming language in general more specifically if we aim non-developers as well > After the prototyping is done a full blown app can be generated. Like > this the online environment becomes sort of like an interactive super > archetype. After generation the application can be post-processed in an > ordinary IDE by developers to fill in the gaps. > > Of course it would require quite some effort to realise. But that > shouldn't stop us from dreaming ;-) > > Regards, > All the above said, and even after mentioning that I thought deeply about that, I have to admit that I am a bit confused. I would like to ask, what are we trying to get out of this ? And whom we are targeting ? Because answering these question is critical to what approach/tool(s) we want/will take I will give a couple of examples I thought about as a suggestion of some lead points to start from 1- Having a web based development environment to make it easy for developers to getting starting with developing an application, so they can start from the prototype step up to real deployments either in the cloud or export what has been developed in a deploy-able package which they can download and run normally with Apache Isis locally as if they already developed it with a typical IDE, or even better that from their favorite IDE, with some extensions for sure, they can point it to their account on that web based development environment, I think IDE is a bit less than what we should have, and get what has been prototypes their and vise versa. One big example on that is Web2Py [2], regardless the license and the MVC approach but I am talking about the idea in general and how they integrate with cloud services providers out of the box and I think also a developer can develop for their stack from a normal IDE but not sure about that 2- This is a different approach, which is not contradicting BTW on the contrary it might be very complementing to the approach explained in the former point. This one can be for the hardcore developers. The approach is like what most of the PaaS use is that the developer develops the application either based on standard API(s) or based on PaaS specific API(s). The PaaS provides a command line tool to help the developers deploying the application to their accounts on the Paas. For example the command line tool of CloudFoundry [3], VMC [4] AFAIK these are the common two approaches/trends in fastening development more specifically when comes to the era of Cloud Computing Thoughts ? [1] http://www.eclipse.org/orion/ [2] http://www.web2py.com/ [3] http://www.cloudfoundry.com/ [4] http://docs.cloudfoundry.com/tools/vmc/installing-vmc.html > > Minto > > [1] http://www.eclipse.org/e4/ > > > Op 13-2-2013 18:13, Dan Haywood schreef: > > Maurizio contacted me off-list re: a little prototype he put together > > exploring an online IDE for Isis. > > > > With permission, I'm forwarding his email and our subsequent conversation > > here in case others are interested in his work. > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Maurizio Taverna <[email protected]> > > Date: 11 February 2013 17:32 > > Subject: Various Topics > > To: Dan Haywood <[email protected]> > > > > [snip] > > > > I spent a couple of hours working on the idea mentioned by Minto about of > > an online environment where applications can be > > created through point and click. The sketch of a possible environment is > > available on the Google App Engine[1]. > > To navigate use the right click pop up on the object tree. > > On "objects" the right click menu allow to open the model, right now > just > > a static created with the yuml.com website. > > The right click menu on the Claims class allows to explore the source > code > > and user interface. > > >From the user interface clicking the actions or the question mark by the > > fields selects the element (property or action) on the object. > > It is possible to see the user interface of an action (if any) selecting > > the action on object tree right click menu "User Interface". > > In an updated version I've added the ability to open the source code in > the > > right place for example a method declaration. > > It could be interesting imagine which other features should be included > to > > be a decent online environment (for example the integration > > with a version control system so it can be used online and with an IDE) > > > > [/snip] > > > > > > Dan: > > This is really interesting work, and I'm impressed by what Maurizio's > done > > here. And I like the idea of integrating with yuml (even though that's > > just mocked up at the moment). > > > > That said, it'd take an awful lot more before I ever considered moving > from > > a "proper" IDE such as Eclipse. (Not that I've used it, but) I believe > > that Cloud9 IDE took a lot of man hours to put together. > > > > Maurizio: > > I agree, this is an open point in every discussion. I have no idea about > > how much code is already available as open source as support for a > project > > like this. The ACE editor is very cool but I don't know about *must > have* > > features like, for example, auto complete and it is challenging the idea > to > > provide an on line debugger. > > > > > > ~~~ > > Other thoughts/comments welcome. > > > > > > [1] http://isis-web-workspace.appspot.com/ > > > > > -- > ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis > Software innovator / renovator > Xup BV > > Mobiel: +31 (0) 626 014541 > > -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour ---- "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving" - Albert Einstein
