well, subsystems sounds like a reasonable goal for Karaf 4.0. In the
meantime Achim's proposal sounds quite valid. Independently I'm still
a bit afraid of the hassle to release and vote on all those
separately...

Kind regards,
Andreas

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:11 AM, David Jencks <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Oct 11, 2012, at 1:22 PM, Achim Nierbeck wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I remember all those discussions about this topic also ...
>>
>> ... (dreaming of a perfect world)
>> Aries and all the other depending projects produce features.xml artifacts ...
>> (dream is over)
>
> Since the subsystem spec is out that is not going to happen.  Karaf could use 
> subsystems and drop its proprietary feature concept however.
>
> david jencks
>
>>
>> unfortunately almost all non karaf-related projects produce feature files,
>> therefore we have to take care of it then.
>> I'm not sure about the proposed artifacts beeing coupled to tight to
>> karaf release
>> schedule (Andreas' idea of 3.x.y for Karaf 3.x version)
>> I'd rather not do this, cause it just wouldn't help much on the issue.
>>
>> We should try to get those needed features either into the Projects
>> where we do have some influence, like aries, pax-web (I'm actually working on
>> this to decouple this stuff ;) ) and for all the others like spring
>> we might just need something similar to what servicemix got for the
>> osgi-fied bundles.
>>
>> So lets take the spring features.xml as the reference sample (since it
>> did get this stuff started).
>>
>> <features name="spring-2.5.6">
>>    <feature name="spring-core" version="2.5.6">
>>    ....
>> </features>
>>
>> and the maven artifact could be something like the following:
>>
>>    <groupId>org.apache.karaf.features</groupId>
>>    <artifactId>spring-2.5.6</artifactId>
>>    <version>1.0.1</version>
>>
>>
>> for the other spring versions basically the same.
>>
>> regards, Achim
>>
>>
>> 2012/10/11 Scott England-Sullivan <[email protected]>:
>>> For those just joining us, the original thread was:
>>> http://karaf.922171.n3.nabble.com/Apache-Karaf-2-3-0-very-close-td4026295.html
>>>
>>> That sounds like a good solution.  One question though.  If you move
>>> all the Karaf compatible "extensions" to a sub-group, wouldn't you
>>> still encounter the same type of hold up?  For example, holding up an
>>> Aries enterprise release with a critical bug fix due to ongoing
>>> integration of a new Spring release.
>>>
>>>> On Oct 11, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Andreas Pieber <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ah, and last but not least: we might want this discussion to be held
>>>>> on the dev list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Andreas Pieber <[email protected]> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> OK, now that I finally found my way through the original thread
>>>>>> causing this discussion I'm even stronger +1 for this topic than
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Get out everything out of the core release which is not started by
>>>>>> default in the default apache-karaf distribution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To make things easy for us we might pack all those other features and
>>>>>> commands and so on into a single release structure to make it easy for
>>>>>> us which is quite roughly compatible to karaf core 2.x.y(.z) for Karaf
>>>>>> 2 compatible plugins and 3.x.y(.z) for Karaf 3 compatible extensions.
>>>>>> This should make the vote & the release process easy enough for us AND
>>>>>> since we can version the features independently of the full release
>>>>>> versions the user can still mix them as he sees fit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just something else to get the discussion about this going :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Andreas Pieber <[email protected]> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, IIRC we've discussed this already on IRC some time ago about
>>>>>>> that. One the main problems by this was that we need to release all of
>>>>>>> those separately; which adds quite some work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But basically I'm with you. It's a PITA with those spring & aries
>>>>>>> enterprise feature upgrades and that we have to wait for them. IMHO we
>>>>>>> should really re-discuss this issue again; to move anything not
>>>>>>> required into different features. Thanks to Christians searchurl
>>>>>>> feature we could still make it pretty easy for ppl to add them
>>>>>>> afterwards if they like. This wouldn't make too much difference to how
>>>>>>> we're handling it right now anyhow...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WDYT?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Scott England-Sullivan
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a recent thread on the development list there was a discussion
>>>>>>>> regarding the release of Karaf 2.3.0 and the possibility of holding it
>>>>>>>> up to accommodate an update to Spring 3.1.  It struck me; why is Karaf
>>>>>>>> tied to a 3rd party release at all?  Why isn't the modular container
>>>>>>>> itself modular?  Why aren't 3rd party support modules such as Spring
>>>>>>>> deployers externalized and allowed to progress at their own pace?
>>>>>>>> Third party dependent modules should be developed against a given
>>>>>>>> release of Karaf, they shouldn't drive it.  There is a new
>>>>>>>> karaf-webconsole project so the precedence is there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Karaf is a great, light-weight container which put a nice manageable
>>>>>>>> wrapper on OSGi with a great CLI, ConfigAdmin, provisioning, etc., and
>>>>>>>> IMHO should stay focused on just that at its core.  The capabilities
>>>>>>>> that are tied to simplifying 3rd party support are goodness but not
>>>>>>>> required and as such, shouldn't drive the cores development.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now maybe you really can't separate one from the other though I don't
>>>>>>>> see where it is tightly coupled at.  I also understand it is a greater
>>>>>>>> challenge to manage because the project become fractured but maybe
>>>>>>>> Karaf is at that point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In reality I am good either way but thought it was worth discussing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>> Scott ES
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Scott England-Sullivan
>>>>>>>> Apache Camel Committer
>>>>>>>> Principal Consultant / Sr. Architect | Red Hat, Inc.
>>>>>>>> FuseSource is now part of Red Hat
>>>>>>>> Web:     fusesource.com | redhat.com
>>>>>>>> Blog:     sully6768.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> Twitter: sully6768
>>>
>>> -
>>> Scott England-Sullivan
>>> Apache Camel Committer
>>> http://sully6768.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/>
>> Committer & Project Lead
>> OPS4J Pax for Vaadin
>> <http://team.ops4j.org/wiki/display/PAXVAADIN/Home> Commiter & Project
>> Lead
>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
>

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