Hi Francisco, thanks for clarification on the mailing list. As I wrote in my first e-mail, I am not against it. I just want to be sure, this is a thing that is known publicly, not just from non-official conversations.
For me personally, I don't see the reasoning to have DMN in Sonataflow, because DMN is specified as a business friendly (mainly for business people, not so technical ones) specification. All things you mentioned, that can be executed, are pure infrastructure functions, highly technical ones. However, with the clarifications, I will not block this. It is just my opinion. I always thought of Sonataflow as a low level orchestration platform and not a business automation workflow engine. I would be very interested in the opinion of others about this. Best regards, Tibor On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 12:04 PM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > Hi Tibor, > There is not any plan, not expectation, that SonataFlow will execute BPMN. > That's absurd from my point of view. > However, executing a decision rule, which always has inputs and outputs, > maps well with the SWF function idiom (an idiom that already allow a SWF > definition to invoke REST services, GRPC functions, Java code, Python > scripts, JQ expressions and Camel, among another stuff). A DRL unit does > not map so well and I do not think applies to the SWF idiom (can be forced > but I do not feel natural, because a DRL unit, implies the existence of > Java POJO as model, which is not an idiom in the SWF spec), that's why it > has not been implemented. > About "strategic implications' ', integration with DMN was already > discussed as a "nice to have" capability two years ago and was not > implemented because of time constraints. Recently it has been raised again > and now I have time to implement it. Since it was an easy implementation > that does not have project wide implications (or affecting the incoming > release), I do not feel there was a reason to discuss it here. > Now that we are discussing and has been explained, do you still see any > issue? > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 10:06 AM Tibor Zimányi <tibor.zima...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Hi Ricardo, > > > > "About DRL, same thing. It should be the next step. And having all these > > technologies playing together out of the box, I believe is what the > > community expects from the projects from KIE." > > > > This is actually the reason why I started the topic in this thread. > Because > > what the community expects cannot be decided on informal chats. So what > is > > the expectation with these changes please? Is it expected from your > > perspective e.g. that Sonataflow will also execute BPMN in the future? > What > > is the proposal along these changes please? These kinds of things need to > > be discussed officially. If not, I will -1 it personally, till we have an > > agreement on the mailing list, because this may have strategic > implications > > around the whole KIE project. > > > > Best regards, > > Tibor > > > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 6:29 PM ricardo zanini fernandes < > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi Tibor! > > > > > > > why we have two workflow engines in the KIE project > > > > > > We just have one workflow engine with two models. BPMN and CNCF > > Serverless > > > Workflow. Adding support to the former was a strategy our community > > > envisioned at the time to leverage the serverless/cloud platforms. > Also, > > it > > > adds support to orchestrate services and events natively from > > Kubernetes. I > > > don't want to extend too much on this and I don't want to start > > discussing > > > now why we add support to CNCF Serverless Workflows as I understand > this > > is > > > already something the community agreed to support. > > > > > > Regarding calling DMN from SonataFlow, as Francisco just explained, was > > > just a matter of adding a new function type to the parser since we > > already > > > support it from our main core workflow engine. Users now will be able > to > > > run DMN from their serverless applications, which I think is pretty > neat. > > > It covers a wide of use cases out there (like orchestrating services > and > > > using DMN in between invocations, pushing events from a DMN invocation, > > > etc.). This will surely add to the DMN and SonataFlow projects more > > > traction. > > > > > > About DRL, same thing. It should be the next step. And having all these > > > technologies playing together out of the box, I believe is what the > > > community expects from the projects from KIE. To exemplify how this > will > > > work, take a look at this Camel example with SonataFlow: > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-examples/tree/stable/serverless-workflow-examples/serverless-workflow-camel-routes > > > > > > The idea would be the same. Drop the DMN file in your project, declare > a > > > function for it, and call it in an operation state [1]. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/serverlessworkflow/specification/blob/main/specification.md#operation-state > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 1:04 PM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Tibor, > > > > Thanks for opening the topic. > > > > This PR adds support for invoking a DMN file from SonataFlow. > > > > This PR takes advantage of the fact that DMN file invocation is > already > > > > supported by jbpm engine and code generator and that the jbpm engine > is > > > > already being used both by SonataFlow and BPMN parsers/code > generators. > > > > Therefore what this PR does is add DMN support (in a similar way that > > is > > > > done to BPMN parser) to the sonata workflow parser by just > recognizing > > > the > > > > idiom ( a new custom type as per Serverless Workflow specification) > > > > Therefore, Nothing needs to be changed in the jbpm engine or in the > > coge > > > > generator. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 5:01 PM Tibor Zimányi <tzima...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > > > I noticed multiple discussions on Zulip and also a PR opened (1) > > about > > > > > executing DMN from Sonataflow. I am opening this thread (because I > > > didn't > > > > > notice one), so we can discuss, if we want to do it. First of all, > I > > > want > > > > > to write, I am not against it. I just want us to be completely > sure, > > > that > > > > > it is what we want to do. Because from my perspective, it opens > > > multiple > > > > > other discussions about the KIE workflow portfolio. One of them > could > > > be, > > > > > why we have two workflow engines in the KIE project, if we want to > > > > execute > > > > > all file types from everywhere (I read discussions on Zulip about > DRL > > > > being > > > > > executed from Sonataflow too). It could imply, that we need a > > portfolio > > > > > consolidation and similar, because we are able to execute DMN and > DRL > > > > from > > > > > the BPMN workflow engine. > > > > > > > > > > What are your opinions please? > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Tibor > > > > > > > > > > (1) > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes/pull/3468 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tibor Zimanyi > > >
