So, good news.. based on LEGAL input it's fine to keep redpanda. On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 2:28 PM Alex Porcelli <porce...@apache.org> wrote: > > Thank you, Gonzalo! > > Please also reach out to gene...@incubator.apache.org mailing list. > > - > Alex > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 2:18 PM Gonzalo Muñoz <gonzalo51...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Thanks Alex, I've created a LEGAL jira as you have proposed: >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-693 >> >> >> El lun, 16 dic 2024 a las 13:25, Alex Porcelli (<a...@porcelli.me>) >> escribió: >> >> > Francisco and Gonzalo, >> > >> > I recommend you open a LEGAL ticket in Apache JIRA and send an email to >> > IPMC to confirm your perspectives. >> > >> > I have no personal preference, as long as IPMC agree with it. >> > >> > Alex >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 7:05 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < >> > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: >> > >> > > Alex, >> > > In the case of Oracle, we were including a dependency to the driver in >> > the >> > > pom.xml file (as test, but a dependency in any case, so it might end up >> > in >> > > the distributable and it was used by our software directly if the test >> > was >> > > run). >> > > In the case of RedPanda, there is not any dependency in the pom.xml file, >> > > but a docker container using redpanda is run if you execute some IT. But >> > in >> > > the client side (our software) there is not any forbidden dependency (as >> > it >> > > happened with the oracle jdbc driver) and RedPanda is not really used >> > (what >> > > is used is the kafka client software, which is valid) >> > > I'm not sure if you realize that If we follow your rationale, we would >> > not >> > > be not able to invoke any REST server that contains software with an >> > > invalid license using our REST client. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:55 PM Alex Porcelli <a...@porcelli.me> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Gonzalo, >> > > > >> > > > I understand that, and there was a similar discussion with Oracle JDBC >> > > > driver dependency. >> > > > >> > > > The IPMC seems to have a different interpretation from Camel PMC. But >> > as >> > > > Apache KIE is under Incubation, we have to cope with IPMC >> > interpretation. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 6:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz <gonzalo51...@gmail.com> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi Alex, >> > > > > >> > > > > The controversy pertains to the interpretation of "include" in the >> > > Apache >> > > > > requirements regarding Category X software. It is important to >> > clarify >> > > > that >> > > > > we are not including any software from Redpanda; it is only >> > downloaded >> > > if >> > > > > the user explicitly chooses to run those specific tests. >> > > > > >> > > > > It is worth noting that Apache Camel follows a similar approach [1]. >> > In >> > > > > fact, Redpanda is their default option, though they also support >> > > Strimzi. >> > > > > [1] >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > https://github.com/apache/camel/blob/3c0dbfafab8c61a753dc013ca0a49a9ecf3e7217/test-infra/camel-test-infra-kafka/src/test/resources/org/apache/camel/test/infra/kafka/services/container.properties#L18 >> > > > > >> > > > > El lun, 16 dic 2024 a las 12:01, Alex Porcelli (<a...@porcelli.me>) >> > > > > escribió: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Toshiya, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > What I mean by temporary is that it’s not a longer term solution, >> > it >> > > > can >> > > > > be >> > > > > > effective for a few releases (similar to what we had for 10.0.0), >> > but >> > > > we >> > > > > > shouldn’t consider it a permanent solution. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Francisco, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The issue is on dependency, not comments… as of now there’s a >> > > > dependency >> > > > > > with a Categoxy X software and IPMC made clear its position. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 5:36 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < >> > > > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Also, its not even clear to me if we are even referencing >> > RedPanda >> > > > > > beyond a >> > > > > > > string in the setup of the IT code. >> > > > > > > I do not think that the rule forbids mentioning "Oracle" and >> > > > "RedPanda" >> > > > > > in >> > > > > > > the source code (that will be as absurd as not being able to >> > have a >> > > > > > comment >> > > > > > > mentioning red pandas). What the rule forbids is including, in >> > our >> > > > > > > distribution, that software (which we are not doing) >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 7:13 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < >> > > > > > > toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi Alex, >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary >> > > > solution, >> > > > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Does "temporary" mean "until graduating incubator"? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > If yes, then removing the test code from source release >> > wouldn't >> > > > > bring >> > > > > > > much >> > > > > > > > value, because "Has Category X dependencies" is a Minor Issue >> > > which >> > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > gives us time until graduation ( >> > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469), so our >> > option >> > > > > seems >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > only one which Ricardo suggested. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Toshiya >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 5:02 AM Alex Porcelli < >> > a...@porcelli.me> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary >> > > > solution, >> > > > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > IPMC has been clear about legal implications in a similar >> > case >> > > we >> > > > > had >> > > > > > > > > with the Oracle JDBC driver. The mentioned license is >> > CategoryX >> > > > and >> > > > > > > > > can't be referenced. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yes, different TLP might have different interpretations, but >> > > IPMC >> > > > > has >> > > > > > > > > been clear about theirs for us (again, using the Oracle JDBC >> > as >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > reference). >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Alex >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 11:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz < >> > > > > > gonzalo51...@gmail.com >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Hi, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Adding more context to this, Quarkus Kafka Dev services >> > uses >> > > > > > Redpanda >> > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > default option (they also have Strimzi and native Kafka, but >> > > have >> > > > > to >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > > opted-in). >> > > > > > > > > > The rationale is "Because starting a Kafka broker can be >> > > long, >> > > > > Dev >> > > > > > > > > Services for Kafka uses Redpanda, a Kafka compatible broker >> > > which >> > > > > > > starts >> > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > ~1 second." [1] >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > So, for example, in kogito-apps, there was no reference to >> > > > > > Redpanda, >> > > > > > > > > just the use of Quarkus Kafka Dev Services which delegates as >> > > > > default >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > Redpanda. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > [1] https://quarkus.io/guides/kafka-dev-services >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > El vie, 13 dic 2024 a las 17:31, ricardo zanini fernandes >> > (< >> > > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com>) escribió: >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Folks, replacing Redpanda with Apache Kafka will >> > deteriorate >> > > > our >> > > > > > > test >> > > > > > > > > cases >> > > > > > > > > >> since the first is a lightweight version of the Kafka >> > > > > > implementation >> > > > > > > > [1] >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Our tests are already a pain to run, consuming too many >> > > > > resources >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > >> infrastructure. Can't we just NOT distribute the IT >> > sources? >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Alternatively, we can remove docker containers and have a >> > > > Kafka >> > > > > > Mock >> > > > > > > > [2] >> > > > > > > > > >> re-engineering our test architecture slightly and use >> > > > > Apache/Kafka >> > > > > > > > ONLY >> > > > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > >> very specific cases (if any). >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Let me know what you think, and I will open a vote thread. >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> [1] >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > https://www.redpanda.com/guides/kafka-alternatives-kafka-limitations >> > > > > > > > > >> [2] https://www.baeldung.com/kafka-mockproducer >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:37 AM Francisco Javier Tirado >> > > Sarti >> > > > < >> > > > > > > > > >> ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > I vote for B), that way we remove the IT test, if any, >> > > from >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > source >> > > > > > > > > >> > distribution, which I think is good anyway. because we >> > if >> > > w >> > > > > only >> > > > > > > > > distribute >> > > > > > > > > >> > the actual running code and its sources, we are reducing >> > > the >> > > > > > size >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > >> > distributable (and in SW, the smaller, if working, the >> > > > better) >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 7:16 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < >> > > > > > > > > tkoba...@redhat.com> >> > > > > > > > > >> > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Thank you, Andrea. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > As Alex suggested, we would: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > A) Replace redpanda with another container which is >> > > under >> > > > an >> > > > > > > > > acceptable >> > > > > > > > > >> > > license (e.g. apache/kafka) >> > > > > > > > > >> > > or >> > > > > > > > > >> > > B) Exclude the relevant test cases from the source >> > > > > > distribution >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > It will be tracked by >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Thanks! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Toshiya >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 7:37 PM Alex Porcelli < >> > > > > > a...@porcelli.me >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Based on some inputs we got from IPMC when >> > discussing >> > > > > Oracle >> > > > > > > > JDBC >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > dependency, the test dependencies on CategoryX are >> > > also >> > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > allowed. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > The workaround could be that the source is not >> > > released >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > >> > binaries >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > aren’t directly dependent on those. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:28 AM Andrea Cosentino < >> > > > > > > > > anco...@gmail.com> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> In the past they were excluded. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> At some point the license changed and it was no >> > more >> > > in >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > category >> > > > > > > > > >> > X. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> I don't remember the dependency anyway. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Il giorno gio 12 dic 2024 alle ore 11:12 Toshiya >> > > > > Kobayashi >> > > > > > < >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> ha scritto: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thank you for the reply, Andrea. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > If the dependency is used just for testing and >> > > it's >> > > > > not >> > > > > > > > part >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > >> > the >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > release, there are no impediments in using it. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > We were doing something similar in Apache Camel >> > > too >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > dependencies with license non-compliant with ASF >> > > > rules. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Are those dependencies excluded from the source >> > zip >> > > > of >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > Apache >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Camel >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > release? >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thanks, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Toshiya >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 5:35 PM Andrea Cosentino >> > < >> > > > > > > > > anco...@gmail.com >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Hello Toshiya, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> If the dependency is used just for testing and >> > > it's >> > > > > not >> > > > > > > part >> > > > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> release, there are no impediments in using it. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> We were doing something similar in Apache Camel >> > > too >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> dependencies >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> with license non-compliant with ASF rules. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Cheers. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Il giorno mer 11 dic 2024 alle ore 09:30 Toshiya >> > > > > > > Kobayashi < >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> ha scritto: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Hello, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Currently we have GHA test failures with "pull >> > > > access >> > > > > > > > denied >> > > > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> vectorized/redpanda" in kogito repos. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> I filed a GH issue. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Also I have filed a PR to replace >> > > > > > > > > "vectorized/redpanda:v21.11.8" >> > > > > > > > > >> > > with >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "redpandadata/redpanda:v24.3.1". >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes/pull/3812 >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> and now I'm waiting for CI. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Here I want to raise a point. redpanda is under >> > > > > > Business >> > > > > > > > > Source >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> License >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> 1.1. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > https://github.com/redpanda-data/redpanda/blob/dev/licenses/bsl.md >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> , which is Category X ( >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x >> > > > > > ). >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> A question to our mentors; Claus, Andrea and >> > > Brian: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> redpanda is used for test infrastructure. Is it >> > > > > > > considered >> > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "dependency"? >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> If yes, using redpanda is considered as "Has >> > > > > Category X >> > > > > > > > > >> > > dependencies" >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> in >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469 >> > > ? >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Regards, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Toshiya >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >
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