I’m a bit worried that it’s been almost a week and not one person has discussed this here besides Todd and/or I. There are 9 committers and 7 mentors per [1]. Where is everybody?
Cheers, Chris [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/kudu.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Chief Architect Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 Email: [email protected] WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS) Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: jpluser <[email protected]> Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 8:00 PM To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Creating more actual (non-code-auto-emails) discussion on the M/L >Thanks for the reply Todd. Unfortunately it's more systematic than that. >Apologies for top post but am on my phone. Couple points: > >- interested to hear from others besides you on this. No offense but I >think it's important that project members send email here to reply. > >- I hand counted the 4 threads of interest. Didn't run a fancy command >but to be honest it's more indicative of the broader issue. Things aren't >always solved through fancy greps and tools like gerrit. This is going to >be a core issue with Kudu's incubation - how is someone not sitting in a >cube working on the project who isn't on those tools like gerrit and >slack which don't exist at the ASF going to join on the project? > >- Even considering 40 threads I doubt there have only be <= 40 >*decisions* on the project to date. IOW they are being made somewhere but >it's unclear where. Email is easy to follow on a phone on the go >whatever. > >As a mentor I would not be comfortable with Kudu being a TLP at this >point bc frankly projects need to use their dev list for more than >automated discussion and big reports. Simple as that and sending a >transcript of where convo is happening elsewhere is not going to cut it >unfortunately. > >Email is slow and deliberate and not as fast or slick as gerrit etc, but >that's a good thing. It allows people the time needed to read and join an >OSS community. It's too hard to do that with Kudu right now. > >Cheers, >Chris > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Todd Lipcon <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hey Chris, >> >> Responses inline: >> >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Team, >>> >>> I looked at: >>> >>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-kudu-dev >>> >>> And over the last 4 months and Kudu’s inception, we have had >>> well over 2k+ emails, and looking back I found 4 actual threads >>> during that time (and one of which was a release VOTE thread) >>> that wasn’t automatically generated by Gerrit. >>> >>> Mar 2016 438 >>> Feb 2016 1003 >>> Jan 2016 1143 >>> Dec 2015 12 >> >> Hmm, I did a search in my inbox for: [email protected] >>-gerrit >> -jira -"git commit" -dev-help -"svn commit" -moderate -"git push >>summary" >> and counted 30-35 threads. You're right, of course, that JIRA and gerrit >> eclipse the amount of email discussion, though. >> >> >>> >>> >>> If we are going to become an ASF top level project, the project >>> discussion has to happen on the mailing list. We had similar >>> issues in Spark and I realize that lots of project work is assisted >>> by tools and other technologies, but at the ASF, “if it didn’t >>> happen on the mailing list, it didn’t happen.” More-over it’s hard >>> to parse signal from noise in all these automated messages. Frankly >>> I don’t really know if anything good is going on - I know things >>> are going on, and I assume they are good, but it’s extremely hard >>> to verify that. >> >> I think it's worth noting that the "automated' messages are typically >>code >> review requests and responses, which are developer discussion. Our >> project's culture is usually to use JIRAs and/or 'work-in-progress' >>patches >> in gerrit to communicate when we find a bug or want an opinion on >> something. For example, today I found a new bug >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KUDU-1369 and wrote up a quick >> work-in-progress for a a proposed solution and put it up at >> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2514/ . I think it would be >>redundant >> to also send an email to the list saying "Hey guys, I found a bug, >>here's a >> description". >> >> The same goes for design discussion -- eg >> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2443/ is a recent gerrit post that >>Dan >> made for a new feature he's working on. In this case he also sent an >>email >> to the dev list to point out the gerrit in case anyone missed it. I >>imagine >> a lot of people would filter the gerrit emails out of their inbox but >>not >> direct emails to the list (gerrit provides both headers and a subject >>line >> tag to make it easy to do) >> >> In terms of daily dev discussion, most of it has been happening on our >> Slack -- eg earlier today three contributors were discussing in-progress >> efforts on Spark RDD integration and sharing code via that channel. >>Most of >> the community members we've seen so far have tended to prefer this quick >> back-and-forth for discussion. >> >> Of course any _decisions_ will be made on the mailing list. If you >>think it >> would be useful to send a daily slack log to the mailing list, we can do >> that as well. >> >> >> >>> >>> I have a possible suggestions: >>> >>> * Create a [email protected] and send all automated >>> traffic there. *-issues is one option; we could make another name for >>> it. >> >> Sure, we could do that. But, isn't it just as easy for people to set up >>a >> filter for 'kudu-CR' if they want to move those messages elsewhere? Our >> initial motivation when setting up mailing lists was to avoid having too >> many (makes it a pain for people to subscribe to them all). >> >> >>> >>> That will help to separate the signal from the noise in terms of >>> dev/architectural/etc. discussions from code reviews and automated >>> commit messages. >>> >>> One thing you may say is that dev/architectural discussions are >>>happening >>> but they are in Gerrit. I would then say it’s extremely difficult to >>> separate the signal from the noise here, and as such, could be >>>contributing >>> towards making it difficult for others to join the project, something >>> that we identified as an issue in our Incubator report. >> >> Right. One option is that, for patches with bigger discussion, we can >>add a >> gerrit "reviewer" which is actually the dev mailing list. This would >>cause >> the discussion to be CCed there, and bring it to the attention of more >> people. Another thought is to do as you suggest above and move gerrit >> elsewhere, and just have a policy that whenever any gerrit starts >>getting >> architectural, that we send a ping to the dev mailing list to point it >>out >> (as Dan did with his recent design doc). >> >> -Todd
