If you had any idea how much suffering just that has caused. Not just users, but us.
Mark On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:38 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > It’s like 6-7 years since I quickly added a shitty collections API in my > free time because we desperately needed SOMETHING. I don’t know if I tried > to make it wait for proper state or what , it was a stub to try get things > moving. That call, to this day, along with all our other checks, until some > tests ones recently, is garbage. > > If I downloaded a database, and a lot the time, after the create a > database call returned, my database was not ready, I’d saw wow. Terrible > bug got through. If it was a persistent issue for over half a decade? My > god. > > Look I just spent that half decade upgrading from Solr 4 to whatever. I > was mostly out of the loop. But this is crazy, me in there too. > > Mark > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:05 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'll tell you what guys, development right now sucks. I don't enjoy. >> >> But when I start to put things in shape? I get this smile, and I start >> going with the feeling of I don't need you guys, I don't users, I don't >> need a job, cause just this is figgen nice. >> >> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:59 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I suppose I should toss one more out. >>> >>> Hell yes, we will be using curator. >>> >>> It's insane for any group larger than 2-3 to directly use ZooKeeper. >>> Even for that group, you want some damn good reasons to not use curator. We >>> can start using more assembly too (joke Yonik). >>> >>> Curator was an option initially. Then it was yet another project hosted >>> by Netflix. Now it is essential. >>> >>> >>> - Mark >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:41 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> And look, we started pretty deep in the hole. Solr started with tons of >>>> bug or limitations that hardly mattered to it and hit SolrCloud in the eye >>>> like a train. And we were not setup to deal with that. >>>> >>>> We never had a nice garden for SolrCloud. We started in a mess, >>>> thinking, eventually we clear the overgrowth, and we are all good. And then >>>> we started building our house and that garden went wild with a life of it's >>>> own. >>>> >>>> And our development practices, amazingly above many many many groups >>>> and standards out there, is woefully inaccurate for what we are doing. >>>> >>>> "Test pass, I'm not sure about all this but I'm going to commit" (Tests >>>> never pass, must be a lie anyway) >>>> "Leaving on vacation, going to fire this in" >>>> "No one has looked at this huge thing, it's been a while, going to >>>> commit" >>>> *commit* >>>> >>>> And comments to that affect pretty much wrap up our careful and >>>> thoughtful attitude. >>>> >>>> And then of course we come and clean up after, careful gardeners that >>>> we are ... no, we don't. We are not setup to be gardeners, we are not >>>> trying, even if we do, I only like grass and screw the other plants. >>>> >>>> Without SolrCloud, Solr wold be in trouble as well. Brute that it is, >>>> it could go a few more rounds. SolrCloud is a ballerina. Doesn't look it, >>>> cause we dont take care of it. But it is, and it cannot take the beating >>>> that the brute does. >>>> >>>> - Mark >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:19 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Basically I can fix 99% of this without you guys - with simple care >>>>> and effort and time that non of you are likely in the circumstances of >>>>> being able to duplicate.. Been there done that, made it 100x-1000x faster >>>>> to boot and added all kinds of fun. >>>>> >>>>> But I can't build the rest of Solr. I don't care about facets. So >>>>> let's meet half way. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:14 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There are 10,000 problems here. >>>>>> >>>>>> So if you eventually land on one possible solution you agree on, we a >>>>>> little closer. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no problem with the current design. Design's can always be >>>>>> improved, sure. I've made this one fast. You won't believe me fast. The >>>>>> low >>>>>> hanging fruit is astronomical, there is more fruit above that. >>>>>> >>>>>> We never focused on performance. Or at least didn't. That's after we >>>>>> harden. >>>>>> >>>>>> Except performance is the key to everything. >>>>>> >>>>>> SolrCloud is not the only problem. The design of Solr, of SolrCloud, >>>>>> they are fine. Change them, I don't care. Later. They are not a problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> But Solr has as many problems as SolrCloud at this point. This just >>>>>> mater a whole hell of lot less unless they are messing with SolrCloud. >>>>>> Standalone is more of a brute. >>>>>> >>>>>> We have 60 modules that are interconnected. We have a huge code base. >>>>>> That is also fine. >>>>>> >>>>>> We don't tend our garden. That's not fine. I've tended the garden >>>>>> before without one - more than once before. It's a great damn garden. You >>>>>> guys only get to see it grown over and full of weeds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, no redesign, no library, no nothing like that gonna save this. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is hardly concrete awareness of a problem here. The awareness to >>>>>> figure out what actually are the problems and what must be done - that's >>>>>> expensive shit these days if you ask me. I've been wrong lots tough. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:26 PM Jörn Franke <jornfra...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess this is also a bit normal with software that grows over the >>>>>>> years. >>>>>>> One could also say that one writes the current use cases and >>>>>>> interesting future use cases for Solr in a document and designs from >>>>>>> scratch new - taking only the good pieces out of the existing software. >>>>>>> Of course there is a certain amount of time where you need to >>>>>>> maintain both - but this will be also the case for a major rewrite. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Am 04.11.2019 um 20:58 schrieb Erick Erickson < >>>>>>> erickerick...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > If Curator would make that easier and we’re doing major surgery >>>>>>> anyway…. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > But yeah, a nifty, new, more modern tool isn’t going to magically >>>>>>> help if the design is flawed. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Or, if I’m putting my philosophical hat on, code doesn’t get >>>>>>> gnarly intentionally. It gets gnarly because there are a bunch of >>>>>>> problems >>>>>>> to be solved and you don’t know what they are until you run into them. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> it’s always a tension between fixing it enough to get by and fixing it >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> refactoring/redesign. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > But eventually “fixing it enough to get by” totters under it’s own >>>>>>> weight and becomes increasingly fragile and you must take the hit and >>>>>>> redo >>>>>>> major portions of it. The questions now are: >>>>>>> > 1> are we at that point? >>>>>>> > 2> are we going to put the effort into rewriting some of the worst >>>>>>> offenders? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> On Nov 4, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Scott Blum <dragonsi...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Figuring out a better overall algorithmic & data structure design >>>>>>> that's an order of magnitude improvement seems far more important than >>>>>>> swapping out libraries. And I say this as a Curator fan and committer. >>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 11:44 AM Erick Erickson < >>>>>>> erickerick...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >> Bram: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Using Curator has been proposed before. It would require >>>>>>> significant refactoring b/c of how deeply entwined raw ZK is in the >>>>>>> code. >>>>>>> That said, if we’re going to do major surgery it may be the right time >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> consider it. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Erick >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Bram Van Dam <bram.van...@intix.eu> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>> SolrCloud is sick right now. The way low level Zookeeper is >>>>>>> handeled >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> On an unrelated project, I've stopped using "raw" ZK client >>>>>>> access and >>>>>>> >>> have switched to Curator. The API is a fair bit easier to work >>>>>>> with, and >>>>>>> >>> it results in less ugly code. I realize that this won't go very >>>>>>> far in >>>>>>> >>> resolving more fundamental issues, but it might be something >>>>>>> that can >>>>>>> >>> help improve the shape of the code. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> - Bram >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> - Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - Mark >>>>> >>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - Mark >>>> >>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> - Mark >>> >>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>> >> >> >> -- >> - Mark >> >> http://about.me/markrmiller >> > -- > - Mark > > http://about.me/markrmiller > -- - Mark http://about.me/markrmiller
