Members present: Humbedooh, westei, nandana, tkurz, sschaffert, jfrank, Wikier
---------------- Meeting summary: ---------------- 1. Preface 2. triple store 3. Marmotta Website 4. logo e. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MARMOTTA-5 (sschaffert, 4) 5. administration interface 6. w3c w. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp-ucr.html (Wikier, 6) 7. aob -------- Actions: -------- look how Apache Maven generates its site from artifacts (sschaffert, 09:31:26) contact to trademarks@ regarding the logo proposal (Wikier, 09:42:42) decision on different sizes and formats for the logo (sschaffert, 09:42:57) decision on other uses of the brand in the software and on the website (sschaffert, 09:43:27) attach screenshot of new admin interface the JIRA issue (tkurz, 09:48:57) create a jira to track the communication with the ldp wg (Wikier, 09:57:42) start a discussion at the mailing list about ldp, specially ldp-c (Wikier, 09:58:59) continue discussion on LDP issues and contributions from Marmotta (sschaffert, 10:03:43) IRC log follows: # 1. Preface # 09:03:33 [Wikier]: so, what topics do we have? # 2. triple store # 09:03:50 [Wikier]: project branding, lmf 2.4 release tasks and others 09:04:11 [sschaffert]: yes, and the work on the triple store I am doing right now (MARMOTTA-8) 09:04:12 [Wikier]: ok, triple store first 09:04:41 [sschaffert]: so just to summarize again for the newcomers and the meeting minutes 09:05:11 [sschaffert]: I am currently in the process of separating out the triple store used by the LMF, which was actually developed already in 2009 for KiWi 09:05:18 [sschaffert]: so that 09:05:26 [sschaffert]: (1) it can be used independently as a Sesame backend 09:05:41 [sschaffert]: (2) Marmotta can be independent of the triple store and use any Sesame backend 09:05:51 [sschaffert]: (including Jena) 09:06:05 [sschaffert]: the KiWi triple store consists of several components 09:06:33 [sschaffert]: - triplestore core: this component has already been rewritten, uses direct JDBC access to MySQL, PostgreSQL, H2 09:07:03 [sschaffert]: - triplestore transactions: this covers transaction logging, i.e. takes a log of all changes done to the triple store in a transaction 09:07:11 [sschaffert]: finished yesterday 09:07:33 [sschaffert]: - triplestore versioning: this I mostly implemented yesterday, more detailed report below 09:07:57 [sschaffert]: - triplestore reasoning: a rule-based reasoner (sKWRL) operating directly on the database, task for next week 09:08:34 [sschaffert]: - triplestore native SPARQL: SPARQL-to-SQL translation, needs to be rewritten, task for last week of January 09:08:48 [sschaffert]: so regarding the versioning component 09:09:04 [sschaffert]: I have finished the implementation more or less, but it is completely untested 09:09:26 [sschaffert]: the implementation at the moment allows accessing the triple store as a repository at any given time in history 09:10:11 [sschaffert]: so you can say "I want a connection to the state of the triplestore on 17th January, 17:00" and you get a read-only connection where you can use SPARQL or any other Sesame API tools 09:10:26 [tkurz]: cool feature 09:10:41 [sschaffert]: the background here is that I'd like to integrate into the LDP services 09:10:57 [sschaffert]: - certified snapshots, so you can give a link to a version that is known to contain correct data 09:11:06 [tkurz]: we can offer it via memento protocol 09:11:28 [sschaffert]: - support for the memento protocol #linkhttp://mementoweb.org/ 09:11:34 [sschaffert]: - support for the memento protocol #link http://mementoweb.org/ 09:12:03 [sschaffert]: this is maybe also a contribution to the W3C linked data platform WG that we should keep in mind 09:12:18 [sschaffert]: I think as soon as you talk about updates you need to take this into account 09:12:33 [sschaffert]: so back to the implementation, this is implemented but untested 09:12:41 [sschaffert]: also implemented is listing of versions 09:12:56 [sschaffert]: not implemented is reverting versions (not sure if we need this) and removing old versions 09:13:11 [Wikier]: so we have 10 days to prepare a proper test suite 09:13:14 [sschaffert]: task for today is to implement the tests and make sure that it works 09:13:33 [sschaffert]: 10 days until the WG meeting at W3C? 09:13:43 [Wikier]: no, for the planned date 09:13:50 [Wikier]: I mean 09:13:51 [sschaffert]: ah, no, planned date is today :) 09:13:56 [sschaffert]: MARMOTTA-8 09:13:56 [Wikier]: ok :-) 09:14:04 [Wikier]: good 09:14:19 [sschaffert]: so my task today is to write the tests and make sure it works for all three supported databases 09:14:33 [sschaffert]: there will be two tests: 09:14:41 [sschaffert]: (1) testing if the versions are created properly 09:14:48 [sschaffert]: (2) testing if the snapshot functionality works 09:14:58 [sschaffert]: and this is it regarding the versioning component :) 09:15:27 [tkurz]: okay. when do you plan to merge this into the main branch 09:15:48 [sschaffert]: when the reasoning and SPARQL are finished as well and the existing implementation can be replaced 09:15:58 [sschaffert]: this is a huge change because we will drop Hibernate 09:16:11 [sschaffert]: the new implementation directly uses JDBC 09:16:35 [sschaffert]: this has a bit of effect on other LMF modules that also use Hibernate, we need to discuss with Jakob 09:16:44 [Wikier]: we should try to get some figure about the gain in performance 09:16:48 [sschaffert]: but these modules are probably not part of Marmotta 09:16:56 [Wikier]: yes, user and so on 09:17:18 [sschaffert]: using Hibernate is not precluded, just the triple store doesn't need it 09:17:48 [sschaffert]: regarding performance: yes, I am going to do some tests 09:18:03 [Wikier]: cool 09:18:04 [sschaffert]: but real tests I can only do comparing the old complete LMF and the new complete Marmotta 09:18:18 [sschaffert]: because in the old version the triple store cannot be separated 09:18:26 [Wikier]: well, just to know our ideas really apply 09:18:36 [sschaffert]: but I expect a considerable performance gain 09:18:43 [Wikier]: and it is the right way 09:18:48 [Wikier]: good 09:18:56 [sschaffert]: considerable = factor 4 at least 09:19:19 [Wikier]: really? 09:19:26 [sschaffert]: and I also expect a reduced number of bugs 09:19:26 [sschaffert]: yes 09:19:33 [Wikier]: exactly 09:19:33 [sschaffert]: my guess is based on the following: 09:19:56 [Wikier]: code maintainability is for me enough justification of this effort 09:19:56 [sschaffert]: - Hibernate typically produces excessive number of queries that are not needed (at least 4 times more queries) 09:20:26 [sschaffert]: - Hibernate typically loads all fields from the tables even if they are not needed, so more network I/O 09:20:49 [sschaffert]: so I expect factor 4 at least :) 09:20:57 [Wikier]: let's see... 09:21:03 [Wikier]: welcome, jfrank 09:21:26 [Wikier]: anything else regarding the triple store? 09:21:26 [sschaffert]: any more questions regarding the triple store? 09:21:33 [Wikier]: not from my side 09:22:14 [tkurz]: next topic? 09:22:18 [sschaffert]: so let's move to the next topic # 3. Marmotta Website # 09:23:11 [Wikier]: ok 09:23:18 [Wikier]: the first draft i available at the svn 09:23:41 [Wikier]: awaiting for infra to register the location at the apache cms 09:24:13 [Wikier]: further details at MARMOTTA-12 and INFRA-5624 09:24:19 [sschaffert]: any way to see it before? I tried with the Perl scripts but they did not run out of the box, so I left it 09:24:34 [sschaffert]: (MacOS Perl) 09:24:48 [Wikier]: I don't know in OSX, but it Debian I needed to install some extra packages 09:24:57 [Wikier]: perl sucks, yes 09:25:04 [Wikier]: anyway 09:25:12 [sschaffert]: ok, so CPAN and stuff :) 09:25:43 [sschaffert]: so we just wait for INFRA 09:25:44 [Wikier]: I'm trying to use maven as build system, in order to allow automatically publication of javadoc, rest api and so on 09:25:51 [Wikier]: yes 09:26:13 [Wikier]: I'd try to talk with them at #asfinfra 09:26:26 [sschaffert]: ok, once we have the mvn site, what change is needed from INFRA? we won't be using CMS then, true? 09:26:28 [Wikier]: hopefully to get something online early next week 09:27:04 [sschaffert]: this would be good, yes - at least so that people can see something, and we can maybe for the moment refer them to the old LMF page 09:27:12 [Wikier]: no, the cms supports different build systems 09:27:29 [Wikier]: maven is one 09:27:42 [sschaffert]: ah ok, so I suggest we use maven then instead of Perl :) 09:27:58 [Wikier]: so now the site is a maven artifact, where we could try to refer to the actual artifacts and publish technical doc there 09:28:41 [sschaffert]: so it would be possible to setup a Maven project for the website that generates the site out of the artifacts in the repository? 09:28:42 [Wikier]: what it should generate is more or less this: http://s.apache.org/marmotta 09:28:57 [Wikier]: that's my idea, yes 09:29:05 [Wikier]: let's see if we can do it 09:29:10 [jfrank]: so the workflow will be: have the source-files in git -> publish to svn -> run "mvn site" on to publish? 09:29:25 [Wikier]: not really 09:29:40 [sschaffert]: more like a separate project in SVN 09:29:48 [sschaffert]: that refers to the artifacts in the Maven repo 09:29:55 [Wikier]: I'd prefer being able to refer from the site directly the artifact, so no manual dump to svn would be needed 09:30:10 [Wikier]: let's see... 09:30:25 [sschaffert]: if this is possible, great - but not sure if mvn site supports such a thing 09:30:34 [jfrank]: so we need "-site" artifacts for the marmotta modules 09:30:48 [nandana]: take a look at how Apache maven project does this. I think they follow the same approach. 09:30:57 [sschaffert]: good suggestion 09:31:26 [sschaffert]: #action look how Apache Maven generates its site from artifacts 09:31:41 [Wikier]: exactly 09:31:50 [Wikier]: I'm trying to follow such approach 09:32:03 [sschaffert]: +1 09:32:18 [sschaffert]: so what is (in summary) the timeline? 09:32:26 [Wikier]: draft online early next week 09:32:50 [Wikier]: proper web sitr ecosystem during February 09:32:59 [sschaffert]: ok 09:33:03 [Wikier]: s/sitr/site 09:33:26 [sschaffert]: anything more regarding the website? 09:33:36 [Wikier]: no 09:33:41 [sschaffert]: so next topic # 4. logo # 09:33:58 [sschaffert]: ok 09:34:11 [Wikier]: early this morning I send the proposal to [email protected] 09:34:12 [sschaffert]: latest version of logo is attached to the issue tracker 09:34:18 [Wikier]: awaiting for the feedback 09:34:29 [sschaffert]: #link https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MARMOTTA-5 09:34:33 [tkurz]: which one is the latest? 09:34:41 [sschaffert]: version 7 09:34:42 [Wikier]: the tarball 09:34:58 [tkurz]: okay. so lets see what happens 09:34:59 [sschaffert]: at the issue there is a ZIP file with pngs and a PDF for vector graphics 09:35:05 [sschaffert]: as soon as we get confirmation 09:35:11 [sschaffert]: we need to tell our designer 09:35:20 [tkurz]: is there a formal way to donate the logo do ASF? 09:35:20 [sschaffert]: because she will make improved versions for different sizes 09:35:56 [nandana]: I think when you attach it to the JIRA and say that you are willing to license it under AL2 09:35:57 [sschaffert]: this needs to be figured out, but maybe we can contribute it as part of the sourc code? 09:36:03 [Wikier]: plus the "Powered By..." logos 09:36:11 [sschaffert]: ok 09:36:14 [sschaffert]: we need to decide on the following things: 09:36:18 [Wikier]: images are not code 09:36:28 [Wikier]: ASF would need too register as trademark 09:36:34 [sschaffert]: but maybe the SVG files can be seen as code :) 09:36:41 [Wikier]: but not sure if during incubation of when graduating 09:36:41 [nandana]: the donation should be ok, I think (just my opinion, I think someone will confirm in general) 09:36:56 [nandana]: but you need to talk to trademarks@ 09:37:03 [sschaffert]: trademarking is yet another issue 09:37:03 [nandana]: to make sure it is suitable 09:37:12 [nandana]: the use of the logo and stuff 09:37:34 [Wikier]: exactly 09:37:42 [nandana]: "Projects may may choose to use the Apache feather in their logo if they wish, but if they do so they should contact trademarks@ to determine the best format of the feather to use." 09:37:57 [nandana]: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs.html#graphics 09:37:57 [jfrank]: so we should do this before deciding on the logo 09:38:13 [sschaffert]: yes, we read the page 09:38:43 [nandana]: what I am not sure is weather all the trademark guidelines for TLPs also apply for podlings 09:38:57 [nandana]: like the use of TM etc. 09:38:59 [sschaffert]: well, in any case it does not hurt 09:39:12 [sschaffert]: to apply as much of it as possible 09:39:34 [sschaffert]: so things to do: 09:39:36 [nandana]: yeah, and I think the best one to advice on this is trademarks@ 09:39:42 [jfrank]: well, we are definitely planning to be a TLP some day... ;-) 09:39:44 [sschaffert]: - contact trademarks@ refarding the use 09:40:12 [sschaffert]: - decide on the different sizes and formats we need (so our designer can create different versions) 09:40:57 [sschaffert]: - decide on any other uses of the brand we want to have (e.g. the marmot alone, or different background colours) 09:41:57 [sschaffert]: sergio, can you contact trademarks@ or should I do it? 09:41:57 [Wikier]: I'd suggest to await the feedback from IPMC 09:42:04 [sschaffert]: ok sure 09:42:05 [tkurz]: okay. and then we donate the whole set to ASF 09:42:14 [Wikier]: but yes, meanwhile I can contact to trademarks@ 09:42:42 [Wikier]: #action contact to trademarks@ regarding the logo proposal 09:42:57 [sschaffert]: #action decision on different sizes and formats for the logo 09:43:27 [sschaffert]: #action decision on other uses of the brand in the software and on the website 09:43:42 [Wikier]: good! 09:43:44 [Wikier]: next topic? # 5. administration interface # 09:44:06 [sschaffert]: Thomas, short report? :) 09:44:27 [tkurz]: yes. I started to simplify the layout 09:44:52 [tkurz]: it is easy to use for both marmotta and lmf 09:45:21 [tkurz]: furthermore i started to restructure the module properties files 09:45:51 [tkurz]: so the new admin interface should be finished today 09:46:06 [sschaffert]: side remark: when switching to OSGi, the module.properties will anyways probably be solved differently 09:46:19 [sschaffert]: but for now this is good 09:46:42 [tkurz]: okay. it is not a big issue (won't replace it by XML or something) 09:46:57 [tkurz]: just small changes 09:47:19 [Wikier]: this is a mid-term task, indeed 09:47:21 [sschaffert]: any place to see the new layout? 09:47:49 [sschaffert]: (maybe attachment to JIRA issue?) 09:48:05 [tkurz]: not yet. I'll attach a screenshot 09:48:19 [sschaffert]: +1 09:48:42 [Wikier]: +1 09:48:44 [sschaffert]: Christian also volunteered to continue working on the interface once he finished moving to Karlsruhe 09:48:57 [tkurz]: #action attach screenshot of new admin interface the JIRA issue 09:48:57 [sschaffert]: so maybe we should keep him in the loop 09:49:42 [sschaffert]: ok, any more issues regarding this topic? 09:49:57 [westei]: If he plans to contribute he should become a comitter 09:50:13 [sschaffert]: @westei: yes, but this still needs to be seen 09:50:50 [sschaffert]: next topic? 09:51:05 [Wikier]: anything else? 09:51:12 [Wikier]: umm, yes # 6. w3c # 09:51:42 [Wikier]: there are some tasks regarding this 09:51:57 [Wikier]: the first, I plan to start to join the telco next monday 09:52:04 [sschaffert]: +1 09:52:05 [Wikier]: and start to involucrate myself a bit more 09:52:12 [tkurz]: +1 09:52:29 [Wikier]: in addtion, tkurz and me we'll start to explore the implementation of LDP-C 09:52:42 [sschaffert]: good 09:52:42 [Wikier]: I have several questions regarding this 09:52:44 [sschaffert]: my idea here is 09:52:51 [sschaffert]: once we switch to OSGi 09:53:04 [sschaffert]: to allow configuring different backend repositories for different containers 09:53:05 [Wikier]: imho there are like small graphs with some meta-properties and restrictions 09:53:19 [Wikier]: but in the mailing list there are some open discussions 09:53:49 [Wikier]: aggregation vs. 09:53:57 [Wikier]: and so on 09:54:05 [sschaffert]: there are many issues still unsolved 09:54:21 [sschaffert]: the basic question here is: what are containers meant for 09:54:21 [Wikier]: yes 09:54:28 [Wikier]: maybe nandana knows a bit more about it 09:54:45 [Wikier]: but I'd like to open such discussion in the following days 09:54:52 [Wikier]: they have some use cases 09:54:58 [sschaffert]: otherwise, try finding out in the telco 09:55:15 [Wikier]: #link https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp-ucr.html 09:55:49 [Wikier]: but we'll do deeper on it in the following days/weeks 09:55:52 [sschaffert]: so what is it you need from us until monday? 09:55:57 [tkurz]: okay. but you are not much wiser after reading this ;) too many open issues 09:56:04 [Wikier]: nothing 09:56:27 [sschaffert]: the use cases are very high-level 09:56:27 [Wikier]: just reading a bit more the background 09:56:34 [sschaffert]: don't tell much about concrete technical requirements 09:56:42 [tkurz]: I have some questions regarding the draft. maybe you can ask it during the telco? 09:56:44 [sschaffert]: or if containers are actually needed :) 09:57:19 [Wikier]: tkurz: good point: how to proceed with the communication and the wg 09:57:42 [Wikier]: #action create a jira to track the communication with the ldp wg 09:57:59 [sschaffert]: I have some issues too, but they are maybe more for future discussions 09:58:12 [Wikier]: ok 09:58:14 [sschaffert]: can I briefly summarize? 09:58:28 [Wikier]: just to point that we need to invest effort on such 09:58:29 [tkurz]: maybe we should start a discussion on the mailing list, so you can get the questions for the wg from there 09:58:43 [Wikier]: +1 09:58:50 [nandana]: +1 09:58:58 [sschaffert]: (1) update protocol - what to send in a POST/PUT/PATCH request 09:58:59 [Wikier]: #action start a discussion at the mailing list about ldp, specially ldp-c 09:59:14 [sschaffert]: (2) changeset representation format (e.g. the one of Talis) 09:59:22 [nandana]: the WG is also still agreeing on the stuff and open for proposals 09:59:37 [sschaffert]: (3) support for Memento protocol for versioning/snapshots 10:00:05 [sschaffert]: yes, and this is very good, so we can suggest things from technical experience 10:00:05 [jfrank]: is versioning/snapshots part of ldp? 10:00:14 [Wikier]: nandana: exactly, but I'd like to have a better overview of the current agreements before doing more proposal 10:00:15 [sschaffert]: no, but it could be a contribution/extension 10:00:43 [Wikier]: exactly 10:00:43 [sschaffert]: once you have updates, you will inevitably face the problem of logging, versioning, snapshots 10:00:44 [tkurz]: @jakob: it must be part of the http part 10:00:52 [tkurz]: or an extension 10:01:13 [sschaffert]: a concrete suggestion could be to add the Memento protocol as an extension 10:01:36 [sschaffert]: but what I would also like to have is "Permalinks" to "certified" snapshots 10:01:38 [jfrank]: so it's not yet in the ldp, but we'll try to bring it in. 10:01:58 [tkurz]: yes 10:02:13 [Wikier]: in addition, yes 10:02:28 [sschaffert]: but maybe now is not the time to discuss this all, maybe we should first get an overview what they are currently up to 10:02:28 [Wikier]: but I'd prefer to focus now of the main goals of ldp 10:02:44 [Wikier]: and provide feedback from a real implementation point of view 10:02:50 [sschaffert]: yes 10:03:06 [jfrank]: for that we should start with a "real implementation" (in marmotta) 10:03:13 [sschaffert]: so this leaves mainly the topic of the patches/updates and the topic of the changeset representation 10:03:13 [Wikier]: so we'll further discuss this in the upcoming weeks 10:03:22 [tkurz]: okay.any other issue for today? # 7. aob # 10:03:43 [sschaffert]: #action continue discussion on LDP issues and contributions from Marmotta 10:03:50 [Wikier]: anything else? 10:04:00 [sschaffert]: not for today, coding is waiting :) 10:04:05 [Wikier]: 1 hour.... 10:04:13 [Wikier]: coding is waiting, right! 10:04:14 [sschaffert]: needs to be more efficient in the future 10:04:20 [sschaffert]: 30 minutes max 10:04:29 [Wikier]: maybe providing an agenda in advance or so 10:04:38 [Wikier]: I'd say 15-20 10:04:43 [Wikier]: xD 10:04:50 [sschaffert]: yes :) 10:04:58 [Wikier]: well, thanks all for your time 10:05:05 [sschaffert]: thanks also 10:05:13 [sschaffert]: you send the minutes to dev@...? 10:05:28 [sschaffert]: uh oh 10:06:05 [sschaffert]: this was the wrong summary 10:06:20 [tkurz]: the one from yesterday 10:06:35 [sschaffert]: this meeting apparently had an error 10:06:35 [Wikier]: yes 10:06:36 [sschaffert]: -> infra? 10:06:43 [Wikier]: I'll report it to infra 10:06:50 [westei]: http://wilderness.apache.org/archives/apachemarmotta-18_01_2013-7848.html works now 10:06:58 [sschaffert]: I leave the window open just to have the log :) 10:07:13 [jfrank]: only the agenda 10:07:15 [westei]: you are right 10:07:15 [jfrank]: and not complete 10:07:28 [Wikier]: I guess we did something wrong... 10:07:52 [Wikier]: sorry 10:07:58 [Wikier]: I'll talk with infra 10:08:13 [tkurz]: we are still learning ;) 10:08:45 [Wikier]: yes :-) 10:09:05 [tkurz]: what about next chat? 10:09:07 [tkurz]: monday? 10:09:08 [Wikier]: nandana, fchrist: probably you would need to accept the email from ASFBot 10:09:13 [sschaffert]: monday 10:00 CET 10:09:20 [nandana]: yeah 10:09:28 [sschaffert]: maybe reject it! 10:09:29 [Wikier]: xD 10:09:35 [Wikier]: no 10:09:35 [nandana]: but at the moment it contains the same content as http://wilderness.apache.org/archives/apachemarmotta-18_01_2013-8856.txt 10:09:35 [sschaffert]: it is the old meeting summary, after all! 10:09:52 [nandana]: so does not make sense to send it to the dev list, right ? 10:10:05 [Wikier]: maybe not, right 10:10:05 [sschaffert]: no 10:10:14 [nandana]: but we can approve the address for later on 10:10:20 [sschaffert]: maybe sergio can try again 10:10:29 [sschaffert]: maybe now there is the updated version 10:11:19 [sschaffert]: ok, so happy coding :) 10:11:27 [Wikier]: I'll discuss it with infra, and send something later 10:12:07 [westei]: Wikier: I saved the text in a text file 10:12:18 [westei]: So if needed I can provide it later on 10:13:20 [Wikier]: I also have it in my client log, np, thx 10:13:54 [sschaffert]: if there are further issues, I'll hang around here 10:20:23 [Humbedooh]: terribly sorry for the inconvenience - it seems you had exhausted the bot's number of bullet points in your meeting, something I did not foresee 10:20:40 [Humbedooh]: do you still have a log of what went on? if so, I can recreate the summary for you 10:24:52 [Humbedooh]: and I can also see that you sent out my bla bla bla summary to dev@ by mistake - oh dear 10:27:44 [nandana]: Humbedooh: don't worry about that, it got stuck in the moderation and we rejected it :) 10:27:58 [Humbedooh]: cool 10:28:00 [Humbedooh]: okay, let me just fix the bot 10:29:27 [nandana]: Humbedooh: thanks !
