Thanks - afaict those all relate to the CDI API which was previously only added so people could use the @Typed annotation during early migration away from Plexus specifics (this is not required by the container, it's an optional dependency)
As mentioned before I only know of one external extension that was still using the @Typed annotation for one of its components, and it would be possible to alter that extension to not need that (if anyone still even uses it) - so it would be fine to remove the CDI API dependency from Maven. On Thu, 2 Jun 2022, 08:09 Romain Manni-Bucau, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi > > Sorry for the delay. > > Here what I found back but an be worth checking other project mailing lists > since it often leads to dirty workarounds: > > - https://lists.apache.org/thread/wlocsqglzsn18g3o4vc8721gm3nmn99x > - https://lists.apache.org/thread/d9rhh61yy1mtorcc7n6v903rs24md649 > - https://lists.apache.org/thread/oygsxwfr0t6j1bjj8gqw03fwnhst1281 / > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7cs0ptv293b0zddwg5zogqf4m0c81jv8 (this one > comes from tomee@) > - https://lists.apache.org/thread/pjxvmy4lwp7mxk8mvnzrd031rktvqgh1 (when I > said it was reported quite a long time ago and broke quite quickly after it > was added) > - https://lists.apache.org/thread/w8f2k5ktfw4yzvo4y5zbszw3nnl636dy > > One interesting related tickets: > > - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MNG-6354 > > Side note: browsing plugin lists/chans can also be interesting (thinking to > TomEE, Meecrowave, Jetty which hit these conflicts by the past out of my > head). > > To summarize current state: > > - we depend and export JSR 330 (@inject) and JSR 250 (postconstruct etc), > these ones are frozen and legacy due to javax->jakarta renaming, it means > libraries we use and relying on them will likely move anytime soon to > jakarta so if we want to be able to upgrade without build hacks we'll need > to drop javax support and move to jakarta (not tomorrow but it will come > and likely for maven 4 to avoid to break multiple times?) > - anything we export from our maven.core realm can conflict with plugin > realms until we let mojo class realm strategy be configurable (parent/child > first) but it also means we take the risk the container features don't work > anymore if we do - no more injections in mojo for ex. So even if for > javax.* risk is low since it is not legacy dependencies, it is a rule we > should apply to most of our exported libraries (yes, slf4j I'm looking at > you for ex). General rule of thumb would be to only export packages we own > like org.apache.maven, org.codehaus.plexus etc... > - so overall the minimum risk solution is to NOT expose these API and > consider them internal to maven ecosystem (I don't see us breaking maven > plugins, it is too much work for the industry without any gain for end > users IMHO) > > Hope it helps a bit. > > Romain Manni-Bucau > @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog > <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog > <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < > https://github.com/rmannibucau> | > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > < > https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance > > > > > Le mar. 31 mai 2022 à 09:54, Slawomir Jaranowski <[email protected]> > a > écrit : > > > Hi Romain > > > > Did you find - discussions and reported issues? > > > > > > > > > > pt., 20 maj 2022 o 23:18 Romain Manni-Bucau <[email protected]> > > napisał(a): > > > > > Le ven. 20 mai 2022 à 22:21, Slawomir Jaranowski < > [email protected] > > > > > > a > > > écrit : > > > > > > > I was convinced that plexus is deprecated [1] [2], but you propose > > that > > > > users writing plugins outside the Maven core team should use it. > > > > Maybe I missed something? > > > > > > > > > > There are multiple discussions - can try to find them back next week if > > > needed - explaning why using JSR<xxx> does not comply to maven > pluggable > > > design and how an antipattern and a promise of issues it is. > > > So until we have a clean API we have to stay in the status-quo which is > > > plexus AFAIK today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no information [3] that JSR303 should be used only in Maven > > core > > > > plugins / components. > > > > > > > > > > Let's add that then :). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://codehaus-plexus.github.io/plexus-containers/index.html > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://codehaus-plexus.github.io/plexus-containers/plexus-component-annotations/ > > > > [3] https://maven.apache.org/maven-jsr330.html > > > > > > > > > > > > pt., 20 maj 2022 o 21:13 Romain Manni-Bucau <[email protected]> > > > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure for shared, I always considered them as internals of > > maven > > > > > projects and rarely saw them reused except a very few times but > > > reasoning > > > > > is the same whatever module we speak about: does it impact external > > > > > consumer? If yes -> only org.apache.maven API or > > > assimilated/assimilable > > > > > (plexus is today I think), else we don't care and do what we like > > IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le ven. 20 mai 2022 à 21:01, Sylwester Lachiewicz < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > And what about shared libraries? they can be used by plugins or > > even > > > > > > externally. > > > > > > Sylwester > > > > > > > > > > > > pt., 20 maj 2022, 19:15 użytkownik Romain Manni-Bucau < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > napisał: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is quite simple: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maven plugin: maven API or plexus annotations are preferred > > > > > > > Maven core: JSR 330 is out internal API for IoC > > lookups/injections > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Romain Manni-Bucau > > > > > > > @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog > > > > > > > <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog > > > > > > > <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < > > > > > > > https://github.com/rmannibucau> | > > > > > > > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le ven. 20 mai 2022 à 18:08, Slawomir Jaranowski < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a little confused - what should be conclusions from this > > > > > > discussion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I asked about using JSR330 with maven components like > > > MavenProject, > > > > > > > > MavenSession ... in plugin Mojo code. > > > > > > > > But I see discussion about using JSR330 at general in Maven > > > plugins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently we widely use JSR330 in core Maven plugins as > > > > replacement > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > plexus annotations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anybody else summarize it? ... Maybe I wrong understood > > this > > > > > > > > discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > śr., 18 maj 2022 o 16:07 Romain Manni-Bucau < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le mer. 18 mai 2022 à 15:19, Stuart McCulloch < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > écrit > > > > > > > > > : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 14:15, Romain Manni-Bucau < > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le mer. 18 mai 2022 à 15:03, Stuart McCulloch < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > écrit > > > > > > > > > > > : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do wonder whether we're conflating the real issues > of > > > > > > exposing > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > CDI > > > > > > > > > > > > API (for @Typed) with the much smaller JSR330 API > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes as soon as you have a different version needed by a > > > > plugin > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > api > > > > > > > > > > > exposed (parent first forced - and if not forced we > dont > > > know > > > > > if > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > works). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's only ever been one version of the JSR 330 API > > because > > > > > it's > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > and complete (and I'd be surprised if the jakarta.inject > > API > > > is > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > different...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We probably also thought javax.annotation would never get > > dead > > > > > > > > annotations > > > > > > > > > nor build time annotations and it just did so not sure I > > would > > > > bet. > > > > > > > > > Size is not much an issue too, actually new API are fine > but > > > > > > modifying > > > > > > > > > existing can create a mess, in particular with proxies. > > > > > > > > > Last thing is that JSR 330 is not an user API anyway since > it > > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > define the associated behavior so at the end, while it is > > > small, > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > worth keeping maven specific API IMHO for the user facing > > part > > > of > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > deliverables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Side note: I never wrote it wouldnt be great to reuse a > > > standard > > > > > API > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > our own API, I just write it is not compatible with a > plugin > > > > system > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > general until you forbid other usages of that API which is > > not > > > > what > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > for maven plugins IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So we shouldnt leak what others can use in the API - no > > > > parent > > > > > > > > > ClassRealm > > > > > > > > > > > access. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have a link to an issue that specifically > > > > > involved > > > > > > > > > > exporting > > > > > > > > > > > > the JSR330 API (I did a quick search but the threads > I > > > > found > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > the CDI API) > > > > > > > > > > > > IIRC there was only one external plugin/extension > that > > > ever > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > @Typed, > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > we could easily just stop exporting the CDI API while > > > > > > continuing > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > export > > > > > > > > > > > > JSR330 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (other comments inline below...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 10:52, Jason van Zyl < > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have used SLF4J and JSR330 in plugins for years > > > without > > > > > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > > still work and nothing has mysteriously stopped > > working > > > > > even > > > > > > > made > > > > > > > > > 7+ > > > > > > > > > > > > years > > > > > > > > > > > > > ago. I honestly don’t see much point in making our > > own > > > > > > > > annotations, > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve not encountered any of the issues Romain > > presents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Romain’s points: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I don’t see it as an issue that two entirely > > > different > > > > > > > > universes > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > classes don’t work 100% in the same classloader. > Just > > > > fork > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate process as these two universes were never > > > meant > > > > to > > > > > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > > > run > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > the same classloader. They don’t run that way in > > > > production > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > > you try doing that during a build or testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. I don’t think that’s an issue, if we wanted to > > > augment > > > > > > what > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > another CI spec we can with Sisu. I think any of > the > > > > > standard > > > > > > > CI > > > > > > > > > > > > > specifications provide everything we might > > potentially > > > > > need. > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > > > them now, but Sisu would allow us to use which ever > > > spec > > > > we > > > > > > > > wished, > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever combination we wish. Stuart, correct me if > > I’m > > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, supporting different annotations is one of the > > main > > > > > > features > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > Sisu - > > > > > > > > > > > > it doesn't force you to export a particular API (the > > > > previous > > > > > > > > > decision > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > export JSR330 to plugins was because it was a > standard, > > > so > > > > it > > > > > > > made > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > easier to share injectable components between Maven > and > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > ecosystems > > > > > > > > > > > > without having to continually write adapters - but > it's > > > > not a > > > > > > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > > > > > > requirement) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. It’s been fine for how many years? Sisu is our > > > defense > > > > > > here, > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > look at annotation A or B and provide the same > > behavior > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > user. > > > > > > > > > > > I’m > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure Stuart can show us how to get javax.inject and > > > > > > > > jakarta.inject > > > > > > > > > > > > working > > > > > > > > > > > > > simultaneously for a co-existence and/or > transition. > > > > Again > > > > > > > > Stuart, > > > > > > > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > > > > > > > me if I’m wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an initial PR to add jakarta.inject support > to > > > > Guice > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > > > > are working on - once that's in the changes needed in > > > Sisu > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > relatively > > > > > > > > > > > > small. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 16, 2022, at 1:14 PM, Slawomir Jaranowski > < > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But from other side we can use JSR-330 in Mojo > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so we will: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Parameter( defaultValue = "${project}", > > readonly = > > > > > true, > > > > > > > > > > required > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > private MavenProject project; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > > public SuperMojo( Jsr330Component component ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > { > > > > > > > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From code perspective will be clear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > > public SuperMojo( MavenProject project, > > > > > Jsr330Component > > > > > > > > > > component > > > > > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > { > > > > > > > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://maven.apache.org/maven-jsr330.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pon., 16 maj 2022 o 18:42 Romain Manni-Bucau < > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Sławomir, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> This is a complex topic, basically there is a > will > > > to > > > > > get > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > real > > > > > > > > > > IoC > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> maven-core and keep a maven specific API for > > plugin > > > > > > writers > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > > > > > tempted > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> to say option 1 for mojo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> As a reminder the issues exposing @Inject are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 1. We can conflict with plugins (it is the case > > > > already > > > > > > and > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> servers have to workaround that with custom > > > > > classloaders) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 2. We have no guarantee next version of @Inject > > will > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > compatible - > > > > > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> is a trend to break at jakarta EE > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 3. When we'll want to migrate to jakarta.inject > > (or > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > API) > > > > > > > > > > > we'll > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> break all consumers if it is used outside maven > > > > project > > > > > > > itself > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Where this policy has its limitations is that > > > > extensions > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "plugins" in the sense it should only use a > public > > > API > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > currently > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> to use internal one (@Inject). > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> So while I think option 1 is really the way to > go, > > > we > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> work to extend it to extension mid-term and > clean > > > the > > > > > API > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > maven > > > > > > > > > > > 4. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hope it helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Romain Manni-Bucau > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> > | > > > > Blog > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> https://github.com/rmannibucau> | > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau > > > > > > | > > > > > Book > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> < > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Le lun. 16 mai 2022 à 18:13, Slawomir > Jaranowski < > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> We can inject Maven components into plugins in > > many > > > > > ways > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> We can use @Parameter, like: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Parameter( defaultValue = "${project}", > > > readonly > > > > = > > > > > > > true, > > > > > > > > > > > > required = > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> true ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenProject project; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Parameter( defaultValue = "${session}", > > > readonly > > > > = > > > > > > > true, > > > > > > > > > > > > required = > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> true ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenSession session; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Parameter( defaultValue = > "${mojoExecution}", > > > > > > readonly > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > true, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> required = true ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MojoExecution mojoExecution; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> We can use DI with > > > > > > > > > > @org.apache.maven.plugins.annotations.Component > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Component > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenProject project; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Component > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenSession session; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Component > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MojoExecution mojoExecution; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> We can use DI with @javax.inject.Inject on > fields > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenProject project; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MavenSession session; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> private MojoExecution mojoExecution; > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> And DI with constructor: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> @Inject > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> public SuperMojo( MavenProject project, > > > > MavenSession > > > > > > > > > session, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> MojoExecution execution ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> { > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> } > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Which way should be preferred, which one to > > avoid? > > > > And > > > > > > why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Can we use DI for all Maven components? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Sławomir Jaranowski > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sławomir Jaranowski > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A master in the art of living draws no sharp > > > distinction > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > > > > and his play; his labor and his leisure; his mind > and > > > his > > > > > > body; > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > > > education and his recreation. He hardly knows which > > is > > > > > which. > > > > > > > He > > > > > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > > > > > pursues his vision of excellence through whatever > he > > is > > > > > > doing, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > leaves > > > > > > > > > > > > > others to determine whether he is working or > playing. > > > To > > > > > > > himself, > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > > > always > > > > > > > > > > > > > appears to be doing both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- François-René de Chateaubriand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Sławomir Jaranowski > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Sławomir Jaranowski > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sławomir Jaranowski > > >
