On Thu, 2 Oct 2025 at 21:38, Gary Gregory <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 5:42 AM Sandra Parsick <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I'd like to add my user perspective: > > > > Introducing a new Maven plugin as a replacement for the Surefire plugin > > will create work on the user side. The past teaches us that the > > acceptance of such a change is not very high (see the discussion about > > JUnit 3/4/5, maybe soon 6 will also join this discussion). Therefore, I > > prefer the way that Olivier and Sebastian are preparing: Using the JUnit > > Platform Runnner in the core of Surefire. We have a modernization with > > not so much impact for the user. After the refactoring, IMHO we can go > > further and think about how to adjust the Surefire plugin to have a > > better integration with the Jupiter platform, clean up old defaults, etc. > > > > My 2ct to the JUnit 3 discussion: > > > > The last release of JUnit 3 was 2007. 18 years ago! I think that is > > enough time for a migration :o). I know manual migration sucks. But > > fortunately, nowadays we have tools like OpenRewrite [2] that can > > automate the happy part and help automate the custom part [3]. Of > > Yes, but the "happy part" isn't worth much in this specific case, IMO; > it's the last 20% that consumes 80% of the time. For example, try > converting Apache Commons VFS to JUnit 5... >
no plan yet to drop Junit4 support. Maybe such conversion could be done using AI or openrewrite > Gary > > > course, it depends on your customization how big the manual part will > > stay. But hey, that is the known consequence of customizing. > > To be honest, if you have no problem staying on JUnit 3 then you should > > be okay to stay on an older Surefire plugin version that supports JUnit 3. > > > > Sandra > > > > [1] https://mvnrepository.com/artifact/junit/junit/3.8.1 > > [2] > > https://docs.openrewrite.org/recipes/java/testing/junit5/migratejunittestcase > > [3] https://docs.openrewrite.org/authoring-recipes > > > > Am 01.10.25 um 10:46 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau: > > > @Olivier junit5 platform (what we do use) comes with its configuration but > > > surefire overlaps a lot (~100%) with it and you can't use both together > > > without having a half baked solution. While I do not think we'll ever get > > > a > > > 100% coverage of the underlying engine (we'll likely keep default like > > > *Tests/Test* enforced without preventing the defaults of JUnit for ex - > > > current status is last part is broken), we should be able to respect all > > > the rest - threading, discovery etc.... > > > > > > Indeed we can always make evolving surefire but what's the point since it > > > is already superseeded? > > > > > > Romain Manni-Bucau > > > @rmannibucau <https://x.com/rmannibucau> | .NET Blog > > > <https://dotnetbirdie.github.io/> | Blog <https://rmannibucau.github.io/> > > > | Old > > > Blog <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github > > > <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn > > > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > > > <https://www.packtpub.com/en-us/product/java-ee-8-high-performance-9781788473064> > > > Javaccino founder (Java/.NET service - contact via linkedin) > > > > > > > > > Le mer. 1 oct. 2025 à 01:10, Olivier Lamy <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > > > >> On Tue, 30 Sept 2025 at 23:38, Romain Manni-Bucau <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Le mar. 30 sept. 2025, 14:42, Gary Gregory <[email protected]> a > > >>> écrit : > > >>> > > >>>> What I'm learning here is: > > >>>> > > >>>> - a project stuck on JUnit 3 stays on the last know version that > > >> supports > > >>>> it > > >>>> - JUnit 4, 5, and 6 projects will benefit from the new plug-in and its > > >> more > > >>>> direct approach > > >>>> - other test frameworks like TestNG are supported through JUnit 4+ > > >>>> > > >>>> Is that about right? > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> Junit 5 is a plateforme, if you have n engine for your test framework > > >>> you > > >>> are converse. > > >>> There was one for spock which is not supporter by surefire directly for > > >> ex > > >>> so it is more you are limited to what is supporter in the wild. > > >>> > > >>> Today surefire doesn't support junit5 for that reason for ex, its > > >> filtering > > >>> layer breaks partially that. > > >>> > > >> > > >> Can you please give some details on "surefire doesn't support junit5"? > > >> What do you mean here? > > >> I'm reading this as "surefire cannot run Junit5 tests", which > > >> obviously looks wrong. > > >> > > >>> > > >>>> Thank you, > > >>>> Gary > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 06:20 Romain Manni-Bucau <[email protected]> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Hi Olivier, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Why I thrown this thread is because I think we can go futher and drop > > >>>>> totally our asbtraction which has conflicts with the underlying > > >> platform > > >>>>> (discovery for ex) and just expose junit engine so we would use their > > >>>> test > > >>>>> discovery, their test filtering etc... > > >>>>> This would make the configuration less awckward and the code way less > > >>>>> abstracted so easier to maintain. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Not saying your PR is not awesome (it is) but I think we can leverage > > >>>> maven > > >>>>> 4 to break a bit more and do our big housecleaning ;). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> No strong opinion on the plugin name but options should converge more > > >>>> IMHO. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau > > >>>>> @rmannibucau <https://x.com/rmannibucau> | .NET Blog > > >>>>> <https://dotnetbirdie.github.io/> | Blog < > > >> https://rmannibucau.github.io/ > > >>>>> > > >>>>> | Old > > >>>>> Blog <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github > > >>>>> <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn > > >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > > >>>>> < > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> https://www.packtpub.com/en-us/product/java-ee-8-high-performance-9781788473064 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> Javaccino founder (Java/.NET service - contact via linkedin) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Le mar. 30 sept. 2025 à 11:12, Olivier Lamy <[email protected]> a > > >> écrit : > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> You should have a look at the work already started with this PR [1] > > >>>>>> and previously discussed on Slack. I wanted to reach a certain > > >> level > > >>>>>> of stability before bringing it up on the mailing list. > > >>>>>> The current approach leverages the JUnit 5 platform/engine to run > > >> all > > >>>>>> tests from JUnit 4.12 (via junit vintage which cannot run anything > > >>>>>> before 4.12) onward up to JUnit 5 (6 shouldn't be a problem). > > >> TestNG > > >>>>>> support still needs to be added, but this shouldn't be an issue as > > >>>>>> it's an external engine to add (similar to add vintage engine for > > >>>>>> junit4) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This change deliberately drops support for older JUnit versions > > >> prior > > >>>>>> to 4.12, which are no longer maintained even by the Junit team. > > >>>>>> Users who still rely on those outdated/EOL versions can continue > > >> using > > >>>>>> the last Surefire release that supports them. > > >>>>>> That code is effectively frozen, and no further updates are > > >> expected > > >>>>>> for legacy JUnit support. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I believe this is a good direction because it preserves the same > > >>>>>> plugin name and user-facing configuration, so the impact for users > > >> is > > >>>>>> minimal. > > >>>>>> At the same time, it gives us much cleaner internals, reduces > > >>>>>> duplication, removes a lot of dead code, and significantly cuts > > >> down > > >>>>>> on maintenance overhead with surefire. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Regards > > >>>>>> Olivier > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [1] https://github.com/apache/maven-surefire/pull/3179 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, 29 Sept 2025 at 17:18, Romain Manni-Bucau < > > >>>> [email protected] > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I'd like to start a thread about potentially dropping surefire > > >>>> totally. > > >>>>>>> The rational is that surefire (and failsafe) are mainly an > > >>>> abstraction > > >>>>>>> layer on top of main test providers. > > >>>>>>> However, since JUnit5 the platform/engine is itself such an > > >>>> abstraction > > >>>>>>> layer and a runner. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On another side, testng and junit4 are slowly getting abandonned > > >> - > > >>>> even > > >>>>>> EE > > >>>>>>> TCK started to move. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> In terms of additional features we do have the maven site > > >>>> integratoin - > > >>>>>> but > > >>>>>>> I doubt it is much used outside and to be honest it can be > > >> replaced > > >>>>> with > > >>>>>> a > > >>>>>>> github/dev-factory link with more benefit these days. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> So overall I think we can converge by dropping surefire plugin in > > >>>> favor > > >>>>>> of > > >>>>>>> a thin wrapper of junit5 console runner ([1]). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Short terms I'm sure Christian could help us getting something > > >> fast > > >>>>> based > > >>>>>>> on its implementation ([2] - including a small surefire > > >> compatibility > > >>>>>> mode) > > >>>>>>> and long term it will reduce the maintenance cost we do have for > > >> a > > >>>> very > > >>>>>>> poor gain in current world (site and remoting are no more key > > >>>> features > > >>>>>>> thanks the CI and doc evolution). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Wdyt? Is maven 4 the mometum to do it? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> [1] > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> https://docs.junit.org/current/user-guide/#running-tests-console-launcher > > >>>>>>> [2] https://github.com/sormuras/junit-platform-maven-plugin > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau > > >>>>>>> @rmannibucau <https://x.com/rmannibucau> | .NET Blog > > >>>>>>> <https://dotnetbirdie.github.io/> | Blog < > > >>>>> https://rmannibucau.github.io/> > > >>>>>> | Old > > >>>>>>> Blog <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github > > >>>>>>> <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn > > >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > > >>>>>>> < > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> https://www.packtpub.com/en-us/product/java-ee-8-high-performance-9781788473064 > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Javaccino founder (Java/.NET service - contact via linkedin) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
