On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Connolly <stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be > testing hung up on the committed wording)... > > Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven > to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what they > preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF > SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or progress > enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)? If members of the Apache Board are leading by example then the answer to your questions are clearly no. Cloudera makes a distribution of Hadoop. It definitely contains features and code that don't exist in the standard Apache distribution and this all doesn't get developed at Apache. They have to as that's one of their differentiators. I don't think this is a bad thing, I think this is a good thing. A company who has customers, who pay for Cloudera employees to work on Hadoop and I'm sure some of that work finds its way back into Hadoop. That's how healthy ecosystems work. And if you look at many of the PMCs they also have members that work at commercial companies you will also find more examples of no to both of your questions. > > Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, Blindly? With the criterion being "eat your own dogfood"? That, to me, would be ridiculous. Use the best library you can find regardless of where it comes from provided the license is appropriate. > or moving non-Apache projects > to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change > yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse Sisu, > Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be > fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe > not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit and > perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which sometimes > is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of our > more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as > patches on SVN are a PITA, though) ) Nonsense. I just got two pull requests for Polyglot Tesla in the last two days from people who are interested. If they are good patches I'll take them. Do you really think that a project is presented with a good patch the project is going to say no? Everyone talks about this mythical barrier and that it's so much work to do something not at Apache. Has anyone ever stopped you from contributing to any of the projects above? I've seen more content in the form of email about the potential of not being able to commit to these projects than code contributions actually presented to these projects. I think if someone actually tried contributing, instead of imagining why it's hard, you'd find that it's not hard. Thinking that everything has to be here to work on it is a rather provincial point of view. It doesn't mean I don't care about what I work on here, but I acknowledge that there is work outside of Apache that's useful and interesting. Anyone who actually fixes cross project issues just fixes cross project issues. Stuart is not even a committer and fixes more cross project issues than most committers here and you don't see him bemoaning the fact he doesn't have commit access. So I think that whole notion that everything has to be here in order for their to be an effective way to work on issues is complete bunk. > > These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the > road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that > simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers) > > -Stephen > > On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote: > >> I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit >> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague notion. >> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and >> impractical. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <k...@quipsy.de> wrote: >> >>> As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project should >>> behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather certainly >>> demonstrate how to live the community rules. >>> >>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: Stephen Connolly [mailto:stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com] >>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16 >>> An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List >>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the >>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - >>> /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) >>> >>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this >>> projects PMC. >>> >>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion >>> is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we serve. >>> >>> Please give us your thoughts. >>> >>> The topic is essentially: >>> >>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the >> Maven >>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour? >>> >>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to >>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to PMCs >>> >>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone is >>> human so can make mistakes... >>> >>> So community, what are you expecting? >>> >>> - Stephen Connolly >>> >>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote: >>> >>>> Author: jdcasey >>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013 >>>> New Revision: 1506778 >>>> >>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/r1506778 >>>> Log: >>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment >>>> >>>> Modified: >>>> maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md >>>> >>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md >>>> URL: >>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project >>>> -roles.md?rev=1506778&r1=1506777&r2=1506778&view=diff >>>> >>>> ====================================================================== >>>> ======== >>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md (original) >>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md Wed Jul 24 >>>> 23:21:58 2013 >>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the >>>> * Voting on release artifacts. >>>> * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these --> >>>> >>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment >>>> + >>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project >>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert the >>>> +functioning of the committee itself. >>>> + >>>> +First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain >>>> long-running >>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making significant >>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of >>>> +investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to re-integrate >>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of >>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the >>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the PMC. >>>> + >>>> +Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert work >>>> +on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to >>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes of >>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While >>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >> dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org <javascript:;> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org<javascript:;> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cheers, >> Paul >> > > > -- > Sent from my phone Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder, Apache Maven http://twitter.com/jvanzyl --------------------------------------------------------- You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it is going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt. -- Robert Pirzig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
