I am a +1 for making the changes. - Rob Fellows
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:52 AM Adam Hunyadi <[email protected]> wrote: > <sarcasm> > > I propose naming the master branch Voldemort, so that people do not > speak of its name. Of course this recommendation only applies if noone > finds choosing the name of a "dark" lord offensive. > > </sarcasm> > > Adam Hunyadi > > On 2020. 06. 18. 12:17, [email protected] wrote: > > Language is always changing and the meaning of words is changing, > > sometimes positively and sometimes negatively. > > I think that now is time for change again and we should discuss the use > > of phrases and meanings. > > > > Of course we should change "Master Branch" to "Main Branch". > > But I also think that we shouldn't just make quick changes because it's > > opportune and hastily change a few words. > > > > An example: We could change Master/Slave to Leader/Follower. This may be > > a perfect choice for most people in the world. > > In German Leader is the English word for "Führer". And it is precisely > > this word that we in Germany do not actually want to use for it. > > > > What I mean is that every country and every group (e.g. religion etc.) > > has its own history and certain words or phrases are just not a perfect > > choice. > > We should try to go the ethically correct way worldwide. > > > > This concerns the adaptation of current words and phrases with a view to > > all: in English, Indian, Chinese, German etc. but also for indigenous > > peoples, different religions etc. > > And cultural differences should also be taken into account. > > > > What I would wish for: > > Apache.org should set up an "Ethics Board". A group of people of > > different genders, all colors, religions and from different countries > > and cultures all over our world. > > This Ethics Board should find good and for no one discriminating words > > or phrases for all the areas that stand out today as offensive. > > > > And it would be nice if not only computer scientists participated, but > > also ethicists, philosophers, engineers, various religious people, > > chemists, biologists, physicists, sociologists, etc. > > > > And this Council should set binding targets for all projects. > > > > Am 18.06.2020 um 09:36 schrieb Pierre Villard: > >>> In my perspective this should be an issue for the entire community. > Being > >>> able to identify an issue that directly affects another person but not > >>> one’s self is the definition of privilege. If I can look at how the > use of > >>> these words in someone’s daily life or career impacts them negatively, > >> when > >>> the change would not harm me at all, I see that as a failure on my > part. I > >>> understand the desire to hear from the silent majority, but active > >>> participation and discussion on the mailing list is the exact measure > >>> described by the Apache process for participation in the community. > Those > >>> who speak here are the ones who will have a voice. > >> I could not agree more with the above. > >> > >> Le jeu. 18 juin 2020 à 04:29, Tony Kurc <[email protected]> a écrit : > >> > >>> I suppose I was a bit remiss in not unwinding and/or summarizing some > of > >>> what was in that yetus thread to prime the discussion, but a some of > what > >>> Andy is mentioning is expanded on a bit in this ietf document [1], > which is > >>> linked in one of the articles. > >>> > >>> 1. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:02 PM Andy LoPresto <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Edward, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ll reply inline. > >>>> > >>>>> - Some of the terms proposed are not industry standard and may > >>>> potentially > >>>>> cause significant issue for non-english speakers. > >>>> I actually believe making these changes will _improve_ the clarity for > >>>> non-english speakers. “Whitelist” and “blacklist” confer no inherent > >>> reason > >>>> to mean allow and deny other than connotative biases. “Allow” and > “deny” > >>>> explicitly indicate the verb that is happening. Another example is > branch > >>>> naming. “Masters” don’t have “branches”. “Trunks” do. These terms make > >>>> _more_ sense for a non-English speaker than the current terms. > >>>> > >>>>> - For each change that is made can we guarantee that we will not lose > >>>>> clarity of meaning, and then have revert the change down the line if > >>> the > >>>>> change causes a drop in usage. > >>>> I don’t expect the community will opt to change the new terms back to > >>> ones > >>>> with negative connotations in the future. If there is discussion about > >>> it, > >>>> this thread will provide good historical context for why the decision > was > >>>> made to change it, just as the mailing list discussions do for other > code > >>>> changes. > >>>> > >>>>> - Of what percentage of people is this truly an issue for and what > >>>>> percentage isn't. Any change that has the potential to cause a major > >>>> split > >>>>> in the community, there must be as close as possible to a majority, > and > >>>> not > >>>>> just from those that are vocal and active on the mailing lists. > >>>>> Disscustions on other groups are turning toxic, and in some cases are > >>>>> potentially leading to the collapse of these projects where these > >>> changes > >>>>> are being implemented with what appears to be without the agreement > of > >>> a > >>>>> signifficant chunk of the community. > >>>>> > >>>> In my perspective this should be an issue for the entire community. > Being > >>>> able to identify an issue that directly affects another person but not > >>>> one’s self is the definition of privilege. If I can look at how the > use > >>> of > >>>> these words in someone’s daily life or career impacts them negatively, > >>> when > >>>> the change would not harm me at all, I see that as a failure on my > part. > >>> I > >>>> understand the desire to hear from the silent majority, but active > >>>> participation and discussion on the mailing list is the exact measure > >>>> described by the Apache process for participation in the community. > Those > >>>> who speak here are the ones who will have a voice. > >>>> > >>>>> - From a personal perspective, I sit on the autism spectrum and have > >>>> grown > >>>>> up with people using words that are very offensive and have hurt me > >>>> badly. > >>>>> Instead of having these words as offensive and untouchable. Myself > and > >>>>> others have instead made these words our own and made them lose the > >>>>> negative connotations they have. As such, I do find the current > >>>>> disscustions deeply alarming and feels like they start to border into > >>> the > >>>>> realm of censorship. > >>>>> > >>>> I think it’s admirable that you have responded to negative > circumstances > >>>> in that way. I also recognize that not everyone has that opportunity. > If > >>> we > >>>> can take these actions as a community to improve the experience for > >>> others, > >>>> I am in favor of that. > >>>> > >>>>> - One final point (and potentially controversial), A good chunk of > the > >>>>> wording that is proposed to be changed. Is being done so on the > >>>>> "modern"/"street" definition of these words and not the actual > >>>> definition. > >>>>> Language should change and evolve to introduce clarity, but right now > >>>> does > >>>>> this change improve the clarity across the engineering sector and I > >>>> believe > >>>>> it won't. > >>>> I’ll paraphrase Emily Kager here with “developers spend an inordinate > >>>> amount of time and energy arguing about the meaning and semantics of > >>>> variable and method names, but pretend exclusionary terms are > >>> meaningless.” > >>>> [1] If we can expend that much energy deciding if a method creates vs. > >>>> builds vs. forms an imaginary concept like a > >>>> LibraryFrameworkWrapperDecorator, I refuse to concede that we can and > in > >>>> fact should do so with the terms that actually affect our community > >>>> members’ lives. > >>>> > >>>> [1] https://twitter.com/EmilyKager/status/1271102865889734656 < > >>>> https://twitter.com/EmilyKager/status/1271102865889734656> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Andy LoPresto > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> He/Him > >>>> PGP Fingerprint: 70EC B3E5 98A6 5A3F D3C4 BACE 3C6E F65B 2F7D EF69 > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 17, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Edward Armes <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> This is a difficult issue and causes no small amount of friction > every > >>>>> time. I'm personally against this for the following reassons: > >>>>> > >>>>> - Some of the terms proposed are not industry standard and may > >>>> potentially > >>>>> cause significant issue for non-english speakers. > >>>>> > >>>>> - For each change that is made can we guarantee that we will not lose > >>>>> clarity of meaning, and then have revert the change down the line if > >>> the > >>>>> change causes a drop in usage. > >>>>> > >>>>> - Of what percentage of people is this truly an issue for and what > >>>>> percentage isn't. Any change that has the potential to cause a major > >>>> split > >>>>> in the community, there must be as close as possible to a majority, > and > >>>> not > >>>>> just from those that are vocal and active on the mailing lists. > >>>>> Disscustions on other groups are turning toxic, and in some cases are > >>>>> potentially leading to the collapse of these projects where these > >>> changes > >>>>> are being implemented with what appears to be without the agreement > of > >>> a > >>>>> signifficant chunk of the community. > >>>>> > >>>>> - From a personal perspective, I sit on the autism spectrum and have > >>>> grown > >>>>> up with people using words that are very offensive and have hurt me > >>>> badly. > >>>>> Instead of having these words as offensive and untouchable. Myself > and > >>>>> others have instead made these words our own and made them lose the > >>>>> negative connotations they have. As such, I do find the current > >>>>> disscustions deeply alarming and feels like they start to border into > >>> the > >>>>> realm of censorship. > >>>>> > >>>>> - One final point (and potentially controversial), A good chunk of > the > >>>>> wording that is proposed to be changed. Is being done so on the > >>>>> "modern"/"street" definition of these words and not the actual > >>>> definition. > >>>>> Language should change and evolve to introduce clarity, but right now > >>>> does > >>>>> this change improve the clarity across the engineering sector and I > >>>> believe > >>>>> it won't. > >>>>> > >>>>> Edward > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 01:11 Andy LoPresto, <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> I am a proponent of making this change and also using allow/deny > list, > >>>>>> meddler-in-the-middle, etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Here is a blog [1] with easy instructions for executing the change > in > >>>> git, > >>>>>> although I don’t know if there is any Apache-integration specific > >>>> changes > >>>>>> we would also need. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] > >>>>>> > >>> > https://www.hanselman.com/blog/EasilyRenameYourGitDefaultBranchFromMasterToMain.aspx > >>>>>> Andy LoPresto > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> He/Him > >>>>>> PGP Fingerprint: 70EC B3E5 98A6 5A3F D3C4 BACE 3C6E F65B 2F7D EF69 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Witt <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I suspect it would be fairly easy to make this change. We do, I > >>> think, > >>>>>>> have whitelist/blacklist in there somewhere but im not sure how > >>>> involved. > >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 3:04 PM Tony Kurc <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>> I've seen the discussion started on other projects [1][2], so I > >>> wanted > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> kick off a discussion to determine whether this is something nifi > >>>> could > >>>>>>>> look at too. Allen Wittenauer's post to yetus captures the why and > >>>> some > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> the how, so rather than copy and pasting, you can take a look at > >>> what > >>>>>> he's > >>>>>>>> done. Thoughts? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Tony > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd38afa9fb6c0dcd77d1a677f1152b7398b3bda93c9106b3393149d10%40%3Cdev.yetus.apache.org%3E > >>>>>>>> 2. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r0825eec0c84296bdab7cf898a987f06355443241ca02b2aaa51d3ef9%40%3Cdev.accumulo.apache.org%3E > > > -- ------------------------------- Rob Fellows
