Is there any enthusiasm for incorporating Moqui as a separate third party dependency into the ERP? What is involved? Does anyone have any sort of plan for using Moqui as a drop-in replacement for the current Framework? A blog article would be a good start in adding some real flesh to this idea if it makes any sense.

If there is a desire for a new OFBiz framework, we should start by adding some details in the wiki.
I can not edit this or add comments.

Once we see how far we can get in a roadmap and functional overview, we can start to look at sub-projects.
It is too early now as far as I can tell.

Ron

On 15/10/2015 11:31 PM, David E. Jones wrote:

On 15 Oct 2015, at 07:58, Adrian Crum <[email protected]> 
wrote:

Keep in mind that much of David's code in OFBiz has been rewritten. So yes, we 
CAN do a better job than him.
I think there’s a name for this logical fallacy…

Also keep in mind that Moqui duplicates some of the problems I listed - so by 
using Moqui, we keep the same problems instead of fixing them.
Could you be more specific, other than the type conversion stuff you mentioned 
many years ago (which I fully disagree with)?

-David


On the other hand, it is David's responsibility to fix them, not ours.

If we created a sub-project, then we would have the opportunity to review 
committer permissions and perhaps restrict access to the new code.

Adrian Crum
Sandglass Software
www.sandglass-software.com

On 10/15/2015 6:34 AM, Al Byers wrote:
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. David Jones created Moqui with
the same end in mind that the rewrite is meant to accomplish. Do you think
that you will do a better job than him? Even if you could, would it be so
much better that it warrants the effort that it would take?

Is this a political thing? I don't know that David would give up control of
Moqui Core and I, for one, would not want him to. So many of OFBiz's
problems are the result of ineptitude on the part of committers who did not
know what they were doing (like me.) But I don't know that the Core will
change all that much going forward and there should be places in the Mantle
to contribute and, most certainly, in the Crust.

I know that there were some valid questions about licensing and project
management, but I would think that they could be worked out.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:46 AM, Hans Bakker <[email protected]>
wrote:

Why not skip this step, using moqui which is already up and running and
then as Adrian states as a next step: applications could be pulled down and
adapted to it.

Hans



On 15/10/15 16:51, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

I'm in the same mood than Paul and Scott. So a sub-project could indeed
be a solution.

Jacques

Le 15/10/2015 03:11, Adrian Crum a écrit :

I agree that a sub-project would be nice to have. Once the new framework
is up and running, applications could be pulled down and adapted to it.

Adrian Crum
Sandglass Software
www.sandglass-software.com

On 10/14/2015 5:53 PM, Ron Wheeler wrote:

This seems to be very good advice.
A completely separate sub-project under OFBiz with its own mailing lists
would keep the people together yet all allow the new framework the
flexibility to move forward.

Ron
On 14/10/2015 8:27 PM, Scott Gray wrote:

My advice is as follows:
1. If people are interested, then get them together and start working
on it.
2. Find somewhere to do the work.  I don't think a branch is
appropriate
because it's completely new development rather than a refactoring.  I
don't
have any objections to it being done under the ASF OFBiz umbrella
(although
I don't really see the need either).
3. Set up a separate mailing list for discussion.  Generally I'd try
and
keep quiet about it in the early stages on the dev/user lists or other
marketing channels because it could potentially harm adoption of our
existing framework (think AngularJS 2.0).

There really isn't any need to get early stage sign-off from the PMC or
anyone else in the community.  You only need enough PMC approval to
get the
required infrastructure sorted, which I don't think would be an issue.
>From there, it's really up to the community to decide whether or not
the
thing will fly.

Regards
Scott


On 15 October 2015 at 08:21, Adrian Crum
<[email protected]

wrote:
I understand that Sharan brought up the framework rewrite subject at
ApacheCon, and some attendees felt that the framework is fine and no
action
needs to be taken.

In this message, I will try to give a detailed explanation of why a
framework rewrite is necessary. I don't plan to take any further
action on
this subject, because I've brought it up before without success, and
I'm
tired of discussing it. It is my hope that the light bulb will click
on in
someone's head and they will take action.

My Background
-------------

I became a member of the OFBiz community in 2004. I immediately
started
making contributions to the project by supplying patches to the issue
tracker. In 2007, I became a committer. Most of my initial work was
on the
UI and some work in the applications (mainly Asset Maintenance and
Work
Effort). I stayed away from touching the framework code because it was
deep, dark, and scary.

Eventually, I started to understand how the framework code works and I
made some minor modifications. As my understanding grew, I progressed
to
rewriting large swaths of framework code - making it thread-safe,
fault
tolerant, efficient, and easier to use.

I will list some of my contributions here, so everyone can have a
clear
understanding of my experience with the framework code:

      New Features

          User Preferences

          Visual Themes

          Custom UI Label XML File Format

          Temporal Expressions

          Data Type Conversion Framework

          Screen Widget Boundary Comments

          Metrics

      Integrations

          UEL

          iCalendar

          JSR 223

          WebDAV

          LDAP

      Refactorings/Improvements

          FlexibleStringExpander

          FlexibleMapExpander

          FOP Integration

          FreeMarkerWorker

          Date-Time Handling

          Mini-language

          Job Scheduler

In addition, I have performed innumerable framework bug fixes.

So, the contents of this message come from years of experience mucking
about in the framework code.

Okay, let's get started...

Initial Problem Statement
-------------------------

In 2009, David Jones started a framework rewrite in a branch:


https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/ofbiz/branches/executioncontext20090716

At the time, there was some agreement that a rewrite was necessary,
but
there was disagreement as to how the rewrite should be incorporated
into
the project:



https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ofbiz-dev/200908.mbox/%[email protected]%3E


There were concerns that a rewrite would break backward compatibility.
Work on the rewrite branch stopped. Eventually, Jacopo suggested the
community be more accepting of backward-incompatible changes:



https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ofbiz-dev/201004.mbox/%[email protected]%3e


Despite an effort to convince David to proceed with the framework
rewrite,
he ended up doing it in a separate project:



http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ofbiz-dev/201104.mbox/%[email protected]%3E


This page describes differences between OFBiz and Moqui, and within
it you
can extract information on the problems David was trying to solve:

http://sourceforge.net/p/moqui/discussion/1086127/thread/4c52f240/

There was an email he sent out on the OFBiz dev list where he listed
the
problems he saw in the framework, but I can't find it. The rest of
this
message will include the issues he mentioned (the ones I remember). I
was
in agreement with him at the time, and I still agree that a framework
rewrite is necessary.

The Problems
------------

Code is scattered everywhere - due to an initial effort to make the
framework modular. This causes serious problems. The mere fact that
components like entityext and securityext EXIST makes it clear that
there
are problems - those components should not be there. Also, we run
into the
recurring problem of circular dependencies (component A will not build
unless component B is built, and component B will not build unless
component A is built).

Bad separation of concerns. There are far too many examples of classes
that try to be everything to everyone. This makes debugging
difficult, and
it makes maintenance/improvements a nightmare. [Using an analogy,
consider
an automobile design where a spark plug is not separate from a
transmission. Instead, the automobile uses a spark-plug-transmission.
So
when the engine is running rough because the spark plug is bad, you
have to
replace the spark plug AND the transmission.] A good framework
example can
be found in my rewrite of the mini-language code. Originally, the
models
AND the script execution context both contained script behaviors -
making
debugging/improvements difficult. I changed it so only the models
contain
script behavior and the script execution context contains only the
script
execution state.

Lack of good OO design. There are many places where a bit of framework
functionality is contained in a single method that is hundreds or
thousands
of lines long. There is a term for that: Brittle Code. Code isn't
reused.
Instead, it is copy-and-pasted all over - so when a problem is found
in the
C&P code, it has to be fixed in many places instead of one.

Fail-slow design. There are a lot of places in low-level code where an
error condition is encountered, but instead of throwing an exception,
the
error is ignored and maybe it is logged, or the code tries to "guess"
at a
solution and then provide an arbitrary default behavior. I've seen
many
developers struggle with debugging a problem because they didn't look
at
the logs, or because the error was not logged and there is no way of
knowing what caused it. They end up spending hours single-stepping
through
code until it reaches the error.

Out-of-date code. A good example is the use of Javolution. That
library
was beneficial in the Java 1.4 days, but it is not necessary today
because
of improved garbage collection. Another good example is DCL code. DCL
was
used extensively in OFBiz, but it is clearly documented to be an
unreliable
design (I can get it to fail 90% of the time). Some DCL code has been
replaced, but a lot of it is still there.

Portions of the API are overly complicated. Some methods require a
collection of user-specified artifacts/arguments, which makes client
code
complicated and verbose. (David solved that problem with his Execution
Context.) Portions of the API are cluttered with unnecessary
"convenience
methods" - making the API harder to learn and memorize. In some
places, a
domain-specific API is spread across instance methods and static
methods
and across different classes - making the API hard to understand and
use.
Yes, there can be good designs that require something like that, but
in the
OFBiz framework, it exists because of a bad design, not a good one.

Use of thread-local variables. This makes multi-threaded design
impossible. The J2EE specification and the Servlet API require one
thread
per request (and most J2EE libraries depend on that behavior), so the
current design makes sense from a J2EE perspective, but what if I
don't
want to run the framework in a J2EE container? Which leads to the next
problem...

Dependence on J2EE designs/APIs/libraries. There are developers in the
Java community (myself included) who are beginning to question if
J2EE is
really necessary to run web applications. The folks at Atomikos are a
good
example. OFBiz does not use EJBs, so tying the framework to J2EE does
not
make sense. It would be better if the framework was designed to run
outside
a J2EE container, and then have container integration as an option.

Configuration files are scattered everywhere. Anyone who has deployed
OFBiz in a production environment will agree this is a problem. Try
changing the HTTP/HTTPS and port settings - it is a nightmare. Some
configuration settings are in nonsensical places.

An abysmal lack of unit testing. I don't have an exact figure for code
coverage, but my gut feeling is coverage is less than 10%. Basically,
we
all have our fingers crossed - hoping that the framework code works as
expected. This was made painfully obvious a while back when I was
looking
at some entity caching code and thought to myself "this code can't
work."
So I wrote some entity cache unit tests and confirmed that the entity
cache
had serious problems. Think about that - years passed with no entity
cache
unit tests and consequently we had no idea it wasn't working.

Fix Versus Rewrite
------------------

Jira issues could be created for these problems and teams of
developers
could work to fix them.

Or, we could create a branch and start over from scratch. This time
around, there should be less push-back from people concerned about
backwards compatibility. A rewrite offers the advantage of
reconsidering
everything - like API design, general problem solving, and new
features.

I created a Wiki page for a framework design:



https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/Another+Framework+Vision


but there hasn't been much interest in it. If the community decides
to go
ahead with a rewrite, then please feel free to use the Wiki pages as a
guide.

Sandglass Foundation
--------------------

Like David, I came to the conclusion that a framework rewrite would be
easier outside the OFBiz community. So, I created my own library
called
Foundation:



http://www.sandglass-software.com/products/sandglass/documents/Foundation_Brochure.pdf


(PDF)

and I only mention it here to stress how wonderful it can be to start
with
a clean slate and design an API that is concise yet powerful. (Please
do
not discuss Foundation here, contact me privately if you want more
information.)

Some examples of what can be done with a rewrite:

      A single configuration file
      Use ANSI/ISO SQL SELECT statement strings instead of constructing
complicated Java structures
      Simultaneous asynchronous queries
      Relational integrity across multiple datasources
      Multi-table SELECT across multiple datasources
      Automatic and transparent row version control
      Automatic and transparent multi-language datasource support
      Abstract entities (similar to SQL user types)
      Service engine throttling (protects against server
over-utilization)
      Simplified security (authorization) (

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/OFBiz+Security+Redesign)


      Pure interface-based API - so developers are free to modify
framework
behavior by using decorators
      Thorough unit tests

Benefits of a rewrite:

      Reduced resource requirements (lower hosting fees)
      Reduce application development time - due to a simplified API
      Easier framework code maintenance
      Better reliability

Conclusion
----------

Like I said at the start, this is all I will say about the subject.
I'm
done trying to convince everyone. I hope someone agrees with me and
they
are able to build support for the idea.

--
Adrian Crum
Sandglass Software
www.sandglass-software.com






--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: [email protected]
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102

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