Technically: The speed of the applet rendering that makes the bad impression, not the fact that it's an applet. If you got some cash from IBM to improve the deployment model and got something that was faster than it is now, that would help. But that's a longshot in getting the help, and a longer shot in making it faster than applets, only because it's a JVM architecture issue and Harmony is not going to be deployed on people's desktops any time soon. Maybe you get some IDE support, but you don't need SWT for that, 99% of Eclipse tool plugins are for technologies that don't use SWT.
The big selling point of Pivot is the cleanliness of the architecture - it's just Java and you throw some XML in there and then I get all the goodness and an almost-Flex-like model in Java! Yeah! Throw in SWT and that clouds your primary message. Non-technically: But the most important downside to going SWT is that it would create a credibility issue. Two months into being a top level Apache project and a sudden change in the architecture for, well, um, the possibility of some cash? Pivot is cool, but it will never touch Flex and WPF. There's simply too much money there and momentum to catch up. You've done a great job at getting close, but do you need to compete with billion dollar companies? Pivot has a great chance at superseding JavaFX and being the top Java-language RIA (that's the main message, don't lose the main message). I'd call it a "niche", but that could way bigger than a niche. If it reached the point that it was the best all-Java RIA story, would you be happy with that? Technically, one nice thing about this position is that anything done to JaveSE to help JavaFX will likely pull Pivot up as well. What if JavaFX doesn't catch steam even with Oracle's support? I'd give that a 75% probability. Maybe Oracle knocks on your door then. If Pivot reached the point where it beats JavaFX, then if not Oracle, then some dark knight will be found. But maybe you don't need the dark knight maybe swarms of people - a lot of companies with a little bit of time and some money. A lot of smart people who want to share their ideas and labor? Why not let Pivot bake in Apache for awhile and see what kind of community can develop around this great technology that is coming to the table with so much? Foster relationships in the Open Source community - get some Tango<http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines>folks involved in skins, for example. Find some frustrated SWT folks that want to go to Pivot and have them help build the IDE. Build the community around Pivot. It might be slow and organic, but seeds need time to grow. I'm very impressed at the level of commitment you've had Greg, and I'm jealous and wish I could churn code that fast and wonder how you find the time. Maybe the way to get Pivot where it needs to be and maybe some balance for you (more time to make a living, etc.) is to get help. One of the last hurdles you had to graduation was the number of committers, and though there are more, there's still growth needed in that area. The more you grow the community the more Pivot will start to take on a life of it's own, perhaps beyond your imagination now (it happens to all software that lasts). Now that it's getting press and eyes, some folks will pick it up for paid projects and will want to contribute back, some will use it for any of the million of UIs they write, free, OS, personal, whatever. You're like Ray Kinsella after building the Field of Dreams when the banker partners said there were about to foreclose on the farm. He decides he can't sell it because he already risked the farm to create this really cool thing that's way bigger than himself and beyond his imagination. People will come, Greg. If you build the community, people will most definitely come. (For those who don't know this 25 year old American movie classic: http://www.hulu.com/watch/12384/field-of-dreams-people-will-come). Michael Bushe Principal Bushe Enterprises, Inc. [email protected] www.bushe.com On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Greg Brown <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Edgar, > > That's good feedback, thanks. > > Honestly, the main problem I have is that Pivot currently lacks a corporate > champion. This hinders our ability to market the platform and fund future > development. It's tough to compete against industry juggernauts like > Microsoft and Adobe without any money. I had originally hoped that Sun might > be interested in sponsoring Pivot, but they seem pretty well entrenched in > JavaFX at this point and not likely to do so. However, IBM is also very > heavily invested in Java and might be inclined to contribute to Pivot if it > added value to their own platform. > > We want Pivot to remain free and open source. However, like everyone else, > we need to make a living. I'll admit that moving to SWT to get IBM's > attention is a long shot. There are some other advantages to such a move > though, which is why I put it out there. > > Greg > > On Feb 22, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Edgar Merino wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > It's been a while since the last time I posted to this list, but I > would like to point out my thoughts here. One of the reasons I loved pivot > from the first time was that it was developed using java 2d instead of SWT. > At home, I have a computer running opensolaris, and that OS has many > problems to run SWT apps (I think the only implementation that exists is > outdated). Also, I don't use eclipse for developing, and I guess I'm not the > only one. Anyway, it's up to you to do this, but I believe you will get rid > of those problems you mentioned but will gain new ones inherited from SWT. > > > > I just wouldn't like to see pivot running on SWT, I personally > dislike JavaFX and Pivot is a nice alternative to it. I really hope many > more will disagree on this and continue to have this excellent framework > running on Java2D. > > > > Edgar Merino > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:09:07PM -0500, Greg Brown wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Todd and I have recently been discussing the possibility of migrating > Pivot to run on SWT rather than Java2D. There are a number of reasons this > might be worthwhile: > >> > >> - It would allow Pivot developers to reach a broader audience by > building Eclipse plugins or RCP applications using Pivot. > >> > >> - It would make it considerably easier to build Pivot development tools > (e.g. a GUI builder) in Eclipse (we already build the platform itself in > Eclipse). > >> > >> - Technical advantages of SWT over AWT (for example, SWT uses native > font rendering - inconsistent text antialiasing is a common complaint about > Pivot apps, and Java2D in general). > >> > >> - It may allow us to generate some additional corporate interest in the > platform. Sun/Oracle seem intent on pursuing Swing and JavaFX, which tends > to make Pivot appear as an also-ran in the Java2D camp. By shifting to SWT, > Pivot could become more appealing to IBM and others in the Eclipse > ecosystem. > >> > >> Pivot is architected in such a way that the impact of migrating to SWT > would be minimal to most applications. However, the level of effort to port > Pivot's skins to SWT would be non-trivial, so this is not something we would > look to undertake without sufficient interest from the Pivot (and Eclipse) > community. > >> > >> One potential hurdle is the lack of an "SWT plugin" that would allow SWT > applications to run in a web browser (similar to an applet). While such a > plugin could undoubtedly be created, it would require a lot of effort and > support from the SWT community, support which they don't currently seem > likely to provide. > >> > >> However, the association with "applets" has, to date, been a bit of a > hinderance to Pivot's adoption. While an SWT plugin wouldn't actually be an > applet, it may be perceived that way. I am wondering if it might be in the > best interest of the platform to simply move away from browser-based > deployment and focus on desktop delivery. Most Pivot applications I am aware > of seem to target the desktop already. Perhaps we should simply focus on > defining Pivot as a tool for building rich, cross-platform desktop > applications rather than trying to directly compete with the big guns in the > RIA space (as well as HTML 5, which will most likely draw attention away > from all RIA platforms)? > >> > >> This would be a significant change, so I would very much like your input > on this possible direction. Please let me know what you think. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Greg > >> > >
