On Mar 30, 2012, at 4:52 AM, Ate Douma wrote: > On 03/29/2012 07:04 PM, Suresh Marru wrote: >> >> On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Franklin, Matthew B. wrote: >>>> I'm going to open a request for creating a MoinMoin wiki instance at >>>> http://wiki.apache.org/rave >>> >>> Is MoinMoin the choice? It's fine by me, but I thought that Confluence was >>> requested by someone... > Hmm, maybe I jumped too quick to a conclusion? > > I did propose creating a MoinMoin wiki after graduation on the roadmap > discussion, if nobody objected... > The only feedback I got was a +1 from Matt [1] :)
I am also + 1 MoinMoin given its simplicity. I just raised some advantages on confluence, but I agree with all other comments and which wiki is less of an issue. Good now we have the setup, so we can focus on the content itself. Suresh > > And earlier there was a request to use Confluence [2] from William Hayes. > I did provide some feedback [3] then giving my hesitation on using > Confluence, based on declining usage (at ASF) and INFRA preferences, as well > as my own. > > I've used both and while Confluence is 'great', I personally prefer MoinMoin > because it is simpler, more lightweight (also on INFRA), open source, and IMO > can do most/everything we should need, including security management [4]. > A I also dislike Confluence very much for one specific reason (see below). > > However we did not formally vote on this as I assumed lazy consensus. > > If someone from our PMC strongly prefers going with Confluence however and > revert the creation of wiki.apache.org/rave (as it already is up), better say > so now before we actually start using it... Migration from one to the other > probably always can be done also later but I've no idea of the amount of > effort. > >> >> >> I do not have the right insights to comment on both the wiki's but I have >> noticed confluence has the some extra benefits which might come handy: >> >> * Integration with JIRA - I am not sure how ASF deployment is setup, but I >> have seen projects who effectively use these two to compliment each other. > I'm not sure either. The benefit probably would be that you don't need to > type a full JIRA issue url, only its key and Confluence will resolve it. But > I don't know if that actually works in the ASF case. At any rate, I don't > care much for that benefit as we have the same 'problem' with email, website > CMS, etc. anyway. > >> * We can have public write access as well as subset of pages with write >> access to commuters only. > This actually can be (and should be) done with MoinMoin too, see [4] for some > info. >> This way if we are having some documentation pages as part of the releases, > Note: ASF INFRA, as of Nov. 1 2011, no longer support/allow (auto) exporting > Confluence to static content to be merged in the main website see [5] > > And I strongly dislike having documentation considered important enough to be > 'released' *not* also and primarily/leading on our website itself. > I easily and quick envision a decline on quality and effort there otherwise. > So -1 from me on that one... > >> the committer contributed content is already covered by ICLA.s. >> Others (who do not have a ICLA on file) can comment on these restricted pages >> without directly editing them and we can take the comments and update the >> pages. > This also can be done through MoinMoin, but IMO we should (only) allow this > through an ContributerGroup [4] which *we* easily can maintain ourselves (on > page-by-page basis if so desired). > Confluence user management however required more karma and is less trivial to > configure in this respect. > >> >> Others who have used both wiki's to a greater extent might be a better judge >> on recommending one over the other. > There is one specific 'feature' of Confluence I particularly hate although > others might not care much for it: its *inability* to provide nested page > urls nor allows same-named pages within one Space [6] (which ends up being > the same issue). > > To me this really is a major issue as you can't build nice and logical url > structures for the wiki content as everything is 'collapsed' in a single url > folder. Try to make two 'Overview' pages in one Confluence (for different > sub-topics)... You'll end up constructing page names like <Topic>Overview, > instead of /topic/Overview. > MoinMoin does support the latter and is trivial to make use of, see [7] for > an example. > > And Confluence is never going to fix this: [6] has been open since 2005 and > has 'just' been closed as 'Won't Fix'... > Read the Atlassian status at the end of that issue description (1 Nov. 2011). > Seven years of waiting ... and then nothing :( > >> >> --Suresh >> >> > > [1] http://markmail.org/message/ruftsbz3j65ifrey > [2] http://markmail.org/message/xou33iugeh2tx474 > [3] http://markmail.org/message/s2mqhn5iz5l2jezq > [4] http://wiki.apache.org/general/OurWikiFarm > [5] > https://cwiki.apache.org/CWIKI/#Index-Canweusetheautoexportsiteaspartofourmainwebsite%3F > [6] https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-2524 > [7] > http://wiki.apache.org/portals/Jetspeed2/PluggableEngineComponents/CoreEngineComponents/PortalConfiguration > > >
