I think for me this discussion should begin in one way only: with some demonstrations of what we think it would look like.
For instance, if you tell me: <newGUI:treeview populateFrom="myBean" onNodeClick="ajax:doNodeClick.do" onItemClick="ajax:doItemClick.do" /> ...and then tell me there is a new config file introduced with such-and-such a structure, then that gives me a fair idea what the intent is (and don't take this as a real example because it isn't meant to be). This means more to me than "...a framework that abstracts view type things" (not meant as a slam to you in any way, just making a point). I think it's easier to work towards a goal when you know what it is in concrete terms rather than some poentially vague high-level abstractions (abstractions in general are simultaneously the most powerful tool we have as architects as well as the bane of our existence!) > And of course the real question becomes - is the struts dev list the > right place to hold this conversation now? And if it is not where or how > do we hold it? :) Your right, that's a good question even *before* anything else ;) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com On Thu, April 7, 2005 2:18 pm, Fogleson, Allen said: > Frank, > > Ok here are my "interpretations" of his comments about that. And mind > you this is a very high level kind of thing I haven't thought through > any kind of real architecture here. > > 1) We (or you and whoever, or just you) create a framework that > abstracts view type things. > 2) Create extensions of the struts tags (much like the el tags did) that > extend struts to use that framework either using Ajax extensions in this > iteration or... as a pluggable view technology and in... > 3) create the pluggable Ajax portion. > > Now this begs some questions... > > 1) how is it easy to use. For instance I assume if we use a pluggable > view technology that there has to be a configuration for that technology > (in addition to any configuration that technology needs - i.e. your ajax > xml config) and that makes things inherently more complicated. > > 2) what is the "intermediate" view technology framework. that is , what > is needed in it. > > And of course the real question becomes - is the struts dev list the > right place to hold this conversation now? And if it is not where or how > do we hold it? :) > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:07 PM > To: Struts Developers List > Cc: Struts Developers List > Subject: RE: RFC: Struts HTML Ajax-Aware Tags > > Well then perhaps we can shift this discussion to what Martin had in > mind... I wasn't sure where he was going frankly. > > It sounded to me like he was almost saying we should be looking at > providing a whole new GUI framework for developing client-side webapp > components, independant of what is going on back at the server (mostly). > > Of course, something like that pretty quickly starts to sound like XUL > or > even JSF or 100 other things out there. And if you go down that route, > what do you lose in the process? The Struts tags are a known quantity, > and they are aware of Struts to an extent... will people be willing to > give that up to use a whole new set of GUI components? > > That was, I felt, the beauty of Ajax-enabling the existing tags... it's > something know, something real (mostly), now (well, soon!), that expands > the toolbox of existing Struts developers, rather than four months of > discussions, another four months of proof-of-concepts, and a year before > anything is produced that is useable. > > I am open to the possibilities though, so by all means let's have a > discussion and see where everyone thinks we are and where we should be > going. I'm all for going a different route if it can be shown to be > better and not just pie-in-the-sky. > > -- > Frank W. Zammetti > Founder and Chief Software Architect > Omnytex Technologies > http://www.omnytex.com > > On Thu, April 7, 2005 1:58 pm, Fogleson, Allen said: >> Yes, I think that is the bottom line, but I believe your post did >> provide some good things. >> >> 1) there is some interest from other developers in assisting with such > a >> project. >> >> 2) Although the initial proposal was for a specific technology I > believe >> Martin brought up some good points about there being a "core" > framework >> for other view technologies to use, and the first concrete >> implementation of that framework can be Ajax. >> >> Now on to the sf thing. I really need to write off I have some stuff >> that I thought about starting a sf project for.. basically extensions > of >> MessageResources. (much like Jame's stuff) I really should just write > to >> one of the admins at struts.sf.net so I can become a member of that >> project. >> >> Al >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:45 PM >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Cc: Struts Developers List >> Subject: Re: RFC: Struts HTML Ajax-Aware Tags >> >> Well, the bottom-line here is that I am in fact a developer member of >> struts.sf.net, although I have yet to contribute anything to it. If I >> want to persue this, that is one of the avenues available to me >> (although >> I don't know the procedure yet). I don't know at this point if I'm >> going >> to do that, go somewhere else, or simply say to hell with it. I was >> hoping for a different answer, but I didn't get it, but that's OK, > that >> was the whole point of bringing it up. >> >> -- >> Frank W. Zammetti >> Founder and Chief Software Architect >> Omnytex Technologies >> http://www.omnytex.com >> >> On Thu, April 7, 2005 1:28 pm, Ted Husted said: >>> On Apr 7, 2005 1:12 PM, Fogleson, Allen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>>> Jack, >>>> >>>> Actually my comments were in no way an answer to his proposal. I >> believe >>>> that under the rules of Apache we have already gotten our answer to >>>> whether it will be included as a subproject of struts. To be > included >>>> there must be no vetoing vote by a member of the PMC. (pardon me >> Martin >>>> if I misquote you or I misinterpreted your intent) Martin Cooper is > a >>>> member of the PMC and basically gave a -1 vote on including it as a >>>> subproject. >>> >>> Just as point of order, vetos only apply to product changes. Adopting >>> a subproject is a 3/4 majority vote. >>> >>> http://struts.apache.org/bylaws.html >>> >>> And, there is not enough here to even think about voting on > subproject >>> status. We don't vote on good intentions. A product would have to be >>> very nearly complete, and have already attracted a following, before >>> we'd want to consider a subproject vote. >>> >>> This is an informal discussion. Frank just wanted to run it up the >> flag >>> pole. >>> >>> -Ted. >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
