Craig committed to changing his slides moving forward and attributed it to an honest mistake and a case of "laziness" :) I have no reason to doubt that he will be changing this in the coming days and weeks.
Patrick On 12/16/05, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have never had a concern about the "umbrella" idea, which is the latest > description of what is happening. I would in fact encourage that and cannot > see any problem with it. However, I pay more attention to people's feet > than their lips. "Is Shale the Next Struts?" is the feet. The community is > not served by the whole panoply of things similar to that which have been > fast and furious over the year plus. If there were a consistent message and > this change of tune when addressing the "outer world" was not the norm, then > I would have no qualms. However, with the data and the facts the way they > are, I think it is naive to expect that Craig really is interested in > community. I do not disparage Craig in saying that. He doesn't have to be > interested in anything. I just don't feel like being an unwitting toady. > > On 12/16/05, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > And I too have made some disparaging comments about certain things > > (Shale/JSF/Craig) in the past (although I regret much of it, especially > > the things with regard to Craig directly, so I'm not about to do the > > Googling for you!)... However, I have come to see the "Struts Umbrella" > > approach as being not necessarily bad or contradictory. > > > > That being said, I also don't see Dakotas' point as being completely > > unreasonable. Is Struts an umbrella for two different paths, Shale and > > Action Framework, or is Shale really potentially the next Struts? I do > > think there is a contradiction there. Dakota may see a conspiracy, I > > think its more likely just some unfortunate choices or maybe just > > unfortunate timing. But either way, I *do* think it is confusing for > > people. > > > > I do have to say that I thought the situtation was worse a few weeks ago, > > and to their credit I think the Struts committers have done a good job of > > disambiguating what the struture is. Kudos for that. Now as long as > > things stick to that structure, after the initial shock people may > > experience over learning "Struts" isn't quite what it was before, I think > > things will go pretty smoothly. > > > > -- > > Frank W. Zammetti > > Founder and Chief Software Architect > > Omnytex Technologies > > http://www.omnytex.com > > AIM: fzammetti > > Yahoo: fzammetti > > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > On Fri, December 16, 2005 11:07 am, Patrick Lightbody said: > > > I think I can offer a somewhat unique perspective. As an "outsider" to > > > Struts and someone who has spent 3 years living in the "WebWork > > > world", I only recently many of the Struts developers and community > > > this week at ApacheCon. Having been in a room talking about this very > > > issue with Ted, Don, Craig, Martin, Neil, Clinton, and others, I can > > > say without a doubt that everyone is on board with this vision of > > > Struts as a community and two parallel frameworks. > > > > > > More so, we are all in agreement that we will collaborate wherever > > > possible, including: > > > > > > - common set of Java 5 annotations > > > - similar style configuration tricks (auto-reloading, consistent use > > > of DTD or XML schema, etc) > > > - validation engine > > > - internationalization > > > - possibly some tags even > > > > > > I'd also like to add that whatever the history has been, today I see > > > Struts as a unique offering. In the web development space (regardless > > > of language), there are two schools of thoughts: > > > > > > - action frameworks: bind requests to methods in beans > > > - event/component frameworks: don't worry about URLs as much and bind > > to > > > events > > > > > > I think it is fair to say that marketplace of developers has not yet > > > decided that one of these is a clear "winner". Struts, as a community, > > > is uniquely positioned to offer both options and is best prepared for > > > the day when that winner is declared. We all agreed that when that day > > > comes, by working together in other areas (validation, i18n, config, > > > annotations, etc) not only will the code be easy to merge, but the > > > community will be too. No other web development community offers this. > > > > > > As someone who has said some pretty disparaging remarks about Struts > > > technolog and community in the part (I'll do the google search for > > > you: > > > > > http://blogs.opensymphony.com/plightbo/2003/10/webwork_docaday_struts_really.html) > > , > > > I can comfortably say I made a big mistake in choosing to create a > > > divide but that I've learned from that mistake and that is why I am > > > here today. > > > > > > And I believe that everyone in the Struts community is also on board > > > to continue the grow the spirit of cooperation, not only between > > > Struts Action and WebWork, but between Struts Action and Struts Shale. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > On 12/16/05, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I think it is fair to say that many of us have made similar comments > > >> over > > >> the past few months, and have every time been basically told that it is > > >> our problem we are not "getting it". Usually we've been told nicely, > > >> but > > >> not always. That isn't the point though, The point is that this is > > not > > >> a > > >> new complaint by any stretch, and it has previously been dismissed on > > >> many > > >> occasions by more than one person. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Frank W. Zammetti > > >> Founder and Chief Software Architect > > >> Omnytex Technologies > > >> http://www.omnytex.com > > >> AIM: fzammetti > > >> Yahoo: fzammetti > > >> MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > >> On Fri, December 16, 2005 10:37 am, Patrick Lightbody said: > > >> > This sounds familiar :) > > >> > > > >> > I definitely would recommend changing the slides and title of the > > >> > presentation. Just yesterday I ran in to this: > > >> > > > >> > > > http://javasymposium.techtarget.com/html/det_descriptions.htm#McClanahanShale > > >> > > > >> > Changing the title to something like "Shale: the Struts Component > > >> > Framework" would certainly clear this up. We need to be firm and > > clear > > >> > on the idea that Struts has many sub-projects, and two major > > >> > frameworks: an Action framework and a Component framework. > > >> > > > >> > Patrick > > >> > > > >> > On 12/16/05, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> >> With some people like Craig McClanahan delivering talks at > > >> significant > > >> >> conferences entitled with contrary ideas like "Is Shale the next > > >> >> Struts", > > >> >> you might excuse people for thinking that this "subproject" ruse is > > >> >> baloney. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and I have > > >> read > > >> >> all > > >> >> about the Trojan Horse. > > >> >> > > >> >> On 12/15/05, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > By the way, the original decision to incorporate Shale as a > > >> subproject > > >> >> > occurred nearly 11 months ago: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-user&m=110651419515521&w=2 > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -- Paul > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Craig > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > > >> >> back." > > >> >> ~Dakota Jack~ > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > -- > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." > ~Dakota Jack~ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
