There are several things I've been thinking about as this discussion
has developed.
First, it is true with any craft, but especially with technology,
that we must always be willing to change when better ways come
along. Otherwise we stagnate and fade away. So if I would be more
productive using these other tools it would be wise for me to
consider using them.
However, I can't imagine I would be more productive by having to open
an RSS reader to follow "the other stuff". As it is I glance at my
email several times a day and read what I can and delete the rest
(similar to James' approach). I would actually be *less* productive
if that involved opening up another reader. The end result is that
I'd probably not read the commits, wiki updates, and tickets. Then I
would lose track with what's going on and fade away.
I'm ok with multiple lists. I tend to subscribe once and stay
subscribed. I could potentially be subscribed from this email
address for the rest of my life :-) If that supports both ways, then
cool.
You guys have made some good points about the WW merger being a
merger of communities not just code. To that end I think there
should be compromise on both sides to merge the communities and get
them working together. However I think one should expect movement on
the ASF side to be slower and more incremental because we're talking
about the whole ASF not just Struts. The other side of that coin is
that I hope the WW people will bring these new ideas to the table and
eventually institute change for the better. Just be aware that this
is a slow-moving train. That pace is one of the things I enjoy about
the ASF. I can go away for a while and when I come back things will
likely be in a state where I can jump back into familiar territory.
I, for one, will try to embrace the new ideas, but it will take a lot
of time. I'd much rather be working on Tiles than figuring out new
ways of keeping up with the discussions :-) +1 for the incremental
approach Ted (I think) proposed.
Greg
On Jan 17, 2006, at 7:45 PM, Patrick Lightbody wrote:
Wow, seems like there is a lot of push back on this topic. All I
ask Please respect that Jason and I (as well as the WebWork
community) come from a very well-established open source community
and have a lot of alternative experience in this area. We both have
different perspectives, but this merger is more than dumping code
in the Struts codebase. It is working with the teams too.
To Ted's specific points:
* I am very well aware the emails are a direct result of a peron's
action. To my original point: I don't care. I personally review the
wiki and bug tracker at a different time than when I check email.
* Jive Forums certainly can filter the email, and I may turn that
on, but then I've bypassed the team rather than working with them.
I don't like that approach at all.
To Sean's points:
* I am not proposing that we get rid of email lists. I am only
suggesting that there be ways to opt out of certain lists/types of
mail. Why is offering more options such a problem? I fail to see
how everything being list-based leads to the conclusion that "The
result is a single archive that is publicly searchable and contains
all relevant decisions (no matter how trivial) in one place." Why
can't there be multiple archives that can all be searched at once?
We provide that with WebWork by allowing users to search the
WebWork _category_, which includes the Dev, User, and CVS lists.
To James:
* I fully support that you work that way and am not suggesting
your workflow change at all. I 100% support complete email-based
communication. I only ask that some users such as myself be able to
opt out.
So, I'd like to propose something. Ted said:
Now, we could create a wiki@ mailing list and an issue@ mailing list,
to match the commit@ list, but now when people opt-in, they have to
opt into five lists instead of three. If we add a Roller blog to the
mix, then there would be six.
I offer two suggestions, either is perfectly fine with me. Any
other suggestions that provide more alternatives are also of course
welcome:
1) Why not create a simple web-based form to manage all the lists.
By default, all 5, 6, or 7 lists are checked when the user clicks
the "subscribe" button, but each list can be independently
subscribed and unsubscribed. You can even set the Reply-To header
for some of the lists (bugs, wiki, etc) to point back to the dev@
list.
and/or
2) Using a Forums-based approach and different mailing lists for
each type of content (wiki@, dev@, bug@, etc), create a single
Struts category with several sub-forms that sync to the lists. Now
users can search the Struts category and get a unified archive.
Thoughts? I understand that this does involve some work, and for
those of you who are quite happy with how things are now, it may
seem like a waste of time. As such, I'm more than willing to do the
actual work for any proposed solution.
Patrick
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