Jeromy Evans wrote:
Niall Pemberton wrote:
I just saw the following comment
"FreeMarker is very similar to Velocity, as both are template
languages that can be used outside of a Servlet container. The
framework utilizes FreeMarker because FreeMarker has better error
reporting. However, both are good alternatives to JSP."
I've questioned that a few times myself. The paragraph doesn't do
FreeMarker much justice from a technical sense, but then again, most
Struts 2 users won't exploit the features FreeMarker offers above
Velocity,
What is your basis for thinking this? It's clear enough from the
freemarker-user list that people do use advanced features of the tool
that are not in Velocity. I just don't see offhand why the usage
patterns of people using FreeMarker in conjunction with Struts 2 would
be particularly different from users in general.
Though, the other thing is that, even if the assertion were true, I
don't know how you would know it was... it seems like a seat of the
pants conjecture...
it has a much steeper learning curve,
Not really. FreeMarker has a longer learning curve because there is
simply more to learn to fully master what it has to offer. It's not
steeper AFAICS. To learn how to do the same basic things in FreeMarker,
that you can do with Velocity, from "Hello, world" on up is not a
steeper path. Again, if you want to take advantage of everything the
tool has to offer, you have a longer path in front of you, but it's not
steeper, I don't think.
it's not as broadly
supported by IDE's
There is very little IDE support for either Velocity or FreeMarker. If
you are bringing JSP into the comparison, then you have a point, but the
topic at hand was FreeMarker vs.Velocity.
There is probably a better chance at this point that FreeMarker will
eventually have more third-party tooling support, because FM 2.4 will
contain a new tools-oriented API that will make it much easier for tool
writers support FTL. Of course, Velocity is, to all intents and
purposes, a dead project development-wise, so I don't think any such
tools API is forthcoming.
The other reason that we could expect more on this front for freemarker
is that the newer versions of Netbeans replaced their use of Velocity
with FreeMarker, and it is likely that they will provide some support
for editing FTL's. (There is some preliminary stuff available, but I
haven't looked at it.) Of course, I would suppose that if one of the big
IDE's eventually offers this feature, their competitors will seriously
consider it as well. Admittedly, when and if this really will come on
line, I have no idea.
and the syntax doesn't transfer easily to other
domains (ie.it's rare to find a interface designer that can read an html
FreeMarker template, but most can grasp the syntax of a velocity
template within a few moments).
I have heard this claim made before, but I have never lent much credence
to it, simply because, intuitively, it would be very surprising to me
that an interface designer can learn Velocity but be unable to learn
FreeMarker. The assertion just does not ring true to me. OTOH, if there
was serious empirical evidence that showed this, I would have to change
my tune. But over the last 5 or 6 years, very many people have switched
from using Velocity to FreeMarker. Our user list is full of Velocity
refugees. I have never heard anybody say that non-programmers had a
harder time reading a FreeMarker template than a Velocity one. I grant
that it could be true, but it does not seem to be much of an issue in
practice.
FreeMarker is technically superior in
(almost?) every way, but not always appropriate.
I have heard this before, but I cannot conceive of a usage scenario in
which Velocity would be indicated over FreeMarker. In terms of JSP, that
has the obvious advantages associated with being a standard, greater
tool support, more people out there who already know it. That said,
there are plenty of people who prefer FreeMarker. The reasons vary, but
I think they just find that it's a a lot cleaner... conceptually, I
guess. As for things like JRuby or Groovy results, I think that is
something so different that a direct comparison with FreeMarker or
Velocity doesn't make much sense.
We should link to/provide something that helps users decide what best
suits their circumstances,
Anything you link to would be just somebody else's opinion. There is no
reason that you could not offer your own opinion. I'd infer that you
don't want to point out there that a fellow ASF project is abjectly
inferior, so, okay, you provide a link where some 3rd party says it, but
you know.... ;-)
including the argument for and against JSP.
I don't think there will ever consensus to recommend one.
I think that in terms of FreeMarker vs. Velocity, there is a pretty
strong consensus among technically informed people in favor of
FreeMarker. As for JSP or other things, like XSLT maybe, or Groovy or
JRuby, they aren't directly comparable in the same way that FreeMarker
and Velocity are.
At the same time it may be useful to compare these to why a JRuby-based
or Grails-based action/result may be more suitable. Blog anyone?
Well, again, you're bringing in things that aren't directly comparable
in the way that FreeMarker and Velocity are. And that was the topic at
hand. Limited to those two things, the case for FreeMarker is just
devastating, I think. It is not an objective source obviously, but I
think the following covers the points:
http://freemarker.blogspot.com/2007/12/velocity-of-freemarker-looking-at-5.html
And it's not unfair to link it, I suppose, because if the Velocity
people cared to write a rebuttal, they have the right to, and you could
link that as well. That blog article contains links to some other blog
articles detailing a switch from Velocity to FreeMarker.
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/AStoryAboutFreeMarkerAndVelocity
http://blog.nominet.org.uk/tech/2005/06/29/moving-from-velocity-to-freemarker
http://blogs.sun.com/satya/entry/migrate_to_freemarker_from_velocity
Of course, you could say that the above ones are cherry picked to
support the case for FreeMarker. But actually, go look for similar blog
articles about a move in the opposite direction. You'll come up empty
handed, I dare say.
Oh, and as for FreeMarker vs. JSP, Jive Software, whose flagship product
is built on Webwork 2 and FreeMarker, switched from JSP to FreeMarker.
Here is some discussion by the Jive developers on that.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.freemarker.user/2984
http://www.jivesoftware.com/community/blogs/clearspace/2007/07/20/the-switch-to-freemarker
Note the last point Bruce made there on our mailing list: "It's powerful
enough for our needs -- velocity didn't have the features we required."
This does seem to contradict the idea that Struts 2 users would not
need the extra power that FreeMarker offers. Just one data point
admittedly, but it tells you something.
Well, 'nuff said, I guess. In some private conversation, one of my
collaborators on FreeMarker pointed to the quote above on your site
about FreeMarker vs. Velocity and, you know, basically said that it was
highly annoying... there's a strong sense out there (right or wrong)
that something like this is an example of you bending over backwards to
be charitable to a fellow ASF project. I had seen that page before and
that was my impression as well. I dunno... Do what you want, but I don't
think you're doing anybody any favors by holding back on telling the
unvarnished truth about this kind of thing. I don't think that it's even
a favor to the Velocity community, though, you know, if some of the
blogs I have linked never shook them out of their complacency, I don't
know what would... :-)
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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