On 06/26/19 14:33, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 14:18 +0200, Laszlo Ersek wrote: >> >> Yes, it can be turned off. It is a common hiccup for new subscribers >> (the groups.io default is broken). I think we meant to document it >> somewhere (outside of the mailing list archive), and I guess we may have >> even done so, but currently a non-list reference escapes me. >> >> Anyway, please see the attached messages -- and then please log in to >> your groups.io account, locate >> >> Account >> Preferences >> Email Preferences >> My Posts >> I always want copies of my own emails >> >> and *uncheck* it. > > Thanks. > >> Because, in reality, that checkbox stands for "munge my Message-IDs so >> that GMail doesn't de-duplicate my own emails when the list reflects >> them to me". But, two wrongs don't make a right :/ > > Wow, this is just completely brain-damaged on so many levels. So people > who do, and who don't, have that box checked will receive the same > message with *different* Message-Id: headers? > > If one of them replies, the In-Reply-To: threading header in their > reply will refer to a message that *doesn't* exist in the other > person's mailbox. This kind of explains why threading was so broken for > messages on the list, with some response getting 'lost' because they > were detached from the thread. This does not facilitate effective > communication. > > Did nobody at groups.io ever stop and think this through? Can it really > not be turned off for the whole list? Why on earth did we move the list > to somewhere that can't even get the *basics* right?
We did evaluate groups.io quite carefully, before moving to it. I proposed a ~15 step plan for the evaluation, and after some tweaking, groups.io passed it. The eval plan targeted basic mailing list functionality, and in my judgement, groups.io has worked as a suitable replacement for the prior lists, ever since we moved. There were two (sets of) motives for migrating away from the previous (01.org-based) list, as I recall. One, list administration for the 01.org owners had been too much of a chore -- our traffic had been too high for 01.org proportions, spam was a constant problem, and moderation / whitelisting for non-subscribers could never be handled effectively. <groups.io> is a lot more flexible in that regard -- the list / subscriber / messages management that I get from groups.io is far better than I got from 01.org *in practice*, for example. Two, the community wanted a "groupware" solution, with calendars, a space for uploading/storing design documents (presentations, PDFs), actually working email attachments, and such. The community also requested WebUI-based thread filtering / message tagging, IIRC. <01.org> offered nothing of the sort; <groups.io> looks viable thus far. My personal requirement was that, with all the above features in place, groups.io should primarily continue working as a (drop-in replacement) mailing list. With some account tweaking, I think it functions well in that regard. Its web archive for the mailing list has a disastrous UI, admittedly, but that has been solved by feeding the traffic to other (independent) archives. <mail-archive.com> is one, and I happen to run another at <https://www.redhat.com/archives/edk2-devel-archive/> (this latter is plain mailman2). Mail-archive.com in particular offers message-id-based search, which is a hugely useful feature. Whenever I need to capture a message reference somewhere, I usually include two -- a msgid-based one, from mail-archive.com, and another, native to groups.io. > Should I offer to set one up @lists.infradead.org? <lists.infradead.org> looks like standard Mailman2. Mailman2 is good for development mailing lists, and its moderation features are quite good in my experience -- as long as the list owner makes those available to list moderators anyway (I'm looking at you, 01.org). However, mailman2 does not offer the "groupware" aspect. I think we should stick with groups.io for now -- it's not ideal as a *development* mailing list, but it looks like a suitable compromise, between multiple goals. There is some pain associated with it when someone subscribes and tweaks stuff initially, but then it's relatively painless. Thanks Laszlo -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#42901): https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/message/42901 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/32213814/21656 Group Owner: devel+ow...@edk2.groups.io Unsubscribe: https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/unsub [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
