On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ard...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Walter, > > Thanks. And I'll check out Fred Martin's book. > If you are up for another visit to us in the Fall to do some more intensive > Turtle Art work, we'd love to have you. > Sounds like fun. Maybe early in the semester to get them up and running. -walter > > > Gerald > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Walter Bender <walter.ben...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito < >> gerald.ard...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Walter and Edward, >>> >>> I am very interested in this conversation. >>> As you know, I have been working with 5th graders and XO Laptops for the >>> past 3 years in the middle school in which I teach. >>> For next year, I have designed a pilot program to teach our 6th graders >>> about programming software and devices. I have seen the sequence as >>> beginning with software and then leading to robots of some kind. >>> I think Turtle Art is a perfect place to start, especially given this >>> conversation, and the availability of the XOs. >>> So, I am willing to test out the work you are doing with these students. >>> >>> I have some questions: >>> 1. Will the recent version of Turtle Art (Turtle Blocks) run on the >>> latest XO build? >>> >> Yes. v108 should run on any XO build. >> >> 2. In order to use sensors, what kind of devices are you talking about >>> (WeDos?; Arduino? Something else?). >>> >> Those are all nice, but just using the microphone in works nicely. Plus >> you have the camera. >> >> >>> 3. Do you have or know of a curriculum that addresses our project? >>> >> There are lots of bits and pieces. Regarding robots, there is a nice book >> written by Fred Martin that came out maybe 5 years ago. (Fred was one of the >> principal designers of the original Lego robotics kits at MIT and helped >> develop with 6.270 curriculum. He teaches at UMass-Lowell. >> >> enjoy. >> >> -walter >> >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Gerald >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Walter Bender >>> <walter.ben...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 8:11 PM, John Gilmore <g...@toad.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had to think about this some before having a useful response. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Lots of good ideas here, so thank you for taking the time. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > I cannot speak for every Sugar developer, but the approach I have >>>>> tried to >>>>> > take with Turtle Art is a bit different than you are describing. The >>>>> > block-based programming environment is not meant to be a substitute >>>>> for real >>>>> > tools; it is meant to be a place to get started; to learn that you >>>>> can write >>>>> > and modify code; and to provide multiple motivations and launch pads >>>>> for >>>>> > getting into the "real" thing. I've worked pretty hard to make the >>>>> > "structured thing" behind the view more approachable, and have >>>>> provided >>>>> > multiple ways in and out: exporting your "fluffy" view into Logo that >>>>> can be >>>>> > run in Brian Harvey's text-based Logo environment; direct, in-line >>>>> > extensions written in Python; the ability to create new blocks by >>>>> importing >>>>> > Python; a plugin mechanism for making major interventions; and a >>>>> refactoring >>>>> > of the underlying structures to make the code more approachable. (The >>>>> source >>>>> > code is peppered with comments and examples of how to make >>>>> modifications.) >>>>> > None of these interventions are intended to keep the kids programming >>>>> in >>>>> > Turtle Art. They are all intended to get the kids started down the >>>>> path of >>>>> > "real" programming. But I content that we need to engage them; let >>>>> them >>>>> >>>>> > discover that they can write code; and make changes; and that it is >>>>> not >>>>> > something just for "others" but for everyone. >>>>> >>>>> Walter, this is a worthwhile approach. >>>>> >>>>> But it was all invisible from an OLPC user's point of view (i.e. a >>>>> child's). All they get is a GUI in which they can hook blocks >>>>> together and see graphics. >>>>> >>>>> Even finding the library of fun looking pre-existing designs was hard >>>>> (it's hiding behind a bizarre looking icon that you can't even see >>>>> until you go to a different tab in the Frame than the default one). >>>>> If you show a kid how to find one of those designs, they get the idea >>>>> of TurtleArt, and can modify them to see how the design changes. >>>>> Until they see a complete, working design in 10 blocks including a >>>>> loop, TurtleArt is a morass where new users can drag things around but >>>>> it doesn't do anything fun. >>>>> >>>>> (Note I'm working from memory of a several-year-old TurtleArt. Perhaps >>>>> it's better now.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Please grab a recent version. It is quite different from even a year >>>> ago. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Also, it's hard to make the leap from a slow turtle leaving marks >>>>> behind as it goes two steps and turns, to the whole screen being >>>>> filled with colors in a flash. Most things in the world don't have >>>>> the many-orders-of-magnitude speedups that we in computing have become >>>>> blase about. It wouldn't occur to us that to paint an entire wall in >>>>> a second, we should tell the painter to move the brush one inch and >>>>> then repeat that over and over until done. We'd look for a spray gun, >>>>> or toss a whole bucket of paint, or recruit a crowd of painters, or >>>>> something. Fast things and painstaking things aren't disjoint in >>>>> computing, as they are elsewhere; how do you teach that powerful >>>>> insight?) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Cute idea for a project: "fill the screen." There are of course many >>>> ways to do it: from using the fill-screen block to setting the pen size to >>>> the screen width to discovering the repeat block to discovering that you >>>> can >>>> launch as many turtles as you'd like, each of which has a pen. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > I am open to suggestions as to how to get more kids to move on from >>>>> Turtle >>>>> > Art to ___ (insert you favorite "real" programming environment here). >>>>> >>>>> First, have Turtle Art start up not with a blank slate, but by >>>>> bringing in one of the predefined designs -- preferably at random, so >>>>> they'll see more of the corpus as they run it over and over. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I have gone back and forth on this one. I think that you are right: I >>>> should start with a program on the screen, probably a simple example of a >>>> spiral that introduces the concepts of loops and variables (and perhaps >>>> sensors). >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Second, I suggest that if some blocks are implemented in short bits of >>>>> Python, that there be a user interface for seeing and modifying those >>>>> short bits of Python (by examining the block in the GUI). This will >>>>> >>>>> provide a bridge for exploring kids to notice that the blocks are >>>>> built out of short bits of structured text -- and that they can >>>>> understand and modify those texts. If they've already figured out >>>>> that they can modify the numeric blocks, then they'll try modifying >>>>> these too. The thing that pops the blocks open shouldn't be too hard >>>>> to find -- perhaps a double-click, or something else that they'll do >>>>> by accident sometime. >>>>> >>>> >>>> All of the blocks are implemented as short bits of Python. But I >>>> deferred to the Sugar View Source mechanism for revealing the contents. I >>>> use a simple plug-in mechanism to define blocks and palettes, but the >>>> disconnect is that I don't (generally) edit them in line; rather, I leave >>>> that to other tools. This was a design decision; in part my goal was to >>>> give >>>> incentive to using Pippy and Edit rather than recreate Pippy and Edit in >>>> Turtle Art itself. But I suppose that making it possible to change them >>>> directly in Turtle Art as well maybe necessary. I can do it easily enough, >>>> but it adds more complexity. >>>> >>>> >>>>> If you can implement more blocks in such bits of Python, do it, so >>>>> they'll have more blocks they can open up and examine and modify from >>>>> the GUI. >>>>> >>>>> How to get them beyond the TurtleArt GUI into the actual Python source >>>>> code of the body of TurtleArt is a challenge that nobody seems to have >>>>> insight on. The "View Source" concept seems to have been much harder >>>>> to implement than we all expected. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am hoping that the recent work I have been doing on View Source -- you >>>> can use it to make copies of the source -- may help. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Don Hopkins worked on a PostScript-based window system (HyperLook) >>>>> that would let you "flip over" an object on the screen to see "behind >>>>> it" a control panel with the guts of its implementation visible. You >>>>> could modify those, then "flip it back" and it would resume running. >>>>> See: http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/hyperlook/index.html and >>>>> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/simcity/hyperlook-demo.html . >>>>> >>>>> Looking back at HyperLook, it looks a lot like the etoys environment, >>>>> full of object oriented code with direct manipulation gui editor >>>>> interfaces. It's dead now; a historical curiosity of interest only to >>>>> >>>>> prior-art searchers defeating too-obvious software patents. It's hard >>>>> to keep such self-contained and self-referential environments alive >>>>> and relevant in the world at large. I think one problem is that the >>>>> state of the environment doesn't get kept in simple text "files" -- a >>>>> concept of enduring value. My old APL programs are all dead too; they >>>>> >>>>> were "objects" in "workspaces" and weren't usually stored in small, >>>>> persistent, portable, named, modular textual representations, the way >>>>> C or Python programs are. >>>>> >>>> >>>> This is why I am trying to get kids to leave Turtle Art behind. It is >>>> there as a hook to get them started, but not intended to be more than a >>>> stepping stone. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps the key is to keep these immersive environments sufficiently >>>>> tiny that you don't mind them dying when you turn your attention to >>>>> something else. Tininess also helps to make one understandable and >>>>> modifiable by others in case they DO want to keep it going after you >>>>> move on. >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It is worth pointing out that there are some math teachers in .UY who >>>> are using the export SVG capabilities of Turtle Art to launch their >>>> students >>>> into more sophisticated graphing and data visualization. Not what I had >>>> expected, but quite a good outcome nonetheless. >>>> >>>> -walter >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Walter Bender >>>> Sugar Labs >>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>>> i...@lists.sugarlabs.org >>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Walter Bender >> Sugar Labs >> http://www.sugarlabs.org >> >> > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org
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