Hi Robert,
> I think you bring up some very good ideas about e-smith. I agree it has a
> lot of potential. I also agree that a journaled filesystem as well as
> additional drives for backups would be a benefit. But...also believe that
> the philosophy that e-smith...err Mitel is following is best, that is to
> say they keep everything very simple, and still try to make their software
> work on the lowest common denominator.
In marketing is called KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Yes, I agree that if
you sell directly to the end client a very simple install with very few
ramifications is the way to go, but then, whats the point of a parter? Just
to install that wonderfull piece of software that my sister could do by
herself? I think this topic is very much related to an older topic I also
posted in the list about the role of the partner. I just think that so much
simplicity might be difficulting the partners job. Maybe E-smith (Mitel)
should only support the base configuration but at the same time let some
flexibility so the partners = experts could customize just a little the
distro for its client. Give them a good "education" program and so on
For example, in our case (bear in mind we are not partners, we did this
job as a favour to this guy) we decided that a second hd for backup was the
way to go not because it's cheap (the cost per MB is higher than others) or
fast, it's because is reliable, it's allways done, no matter what a lazy
admin thinks about backups (the decision was taken just after an accidental
deletion of all the documents about an old client from their W98 desktop).
You see, sometimes you can't asure the admin will make the manual backup and
tapes need some knowledge and care. BTW, our backup system was a little more
complicated, the second hd is in a removable 3 1/2" hd. The second hd is in
read only mode all the time (no corruption) untill it makes the backup (the
chance for an error is quite reduced, especially if you just update). The
idea will be to get this: if something gets wrong with the hardware, remove
the hd, change the pc, put the backup in, start and a script will restore
completelly the system automatically and fast. Thats the way Compaq used to
go with their old SOHO server.
> Case in point: They have stayed away from the 2.4 kernel series. Some
> people view that as a lack of initiative. I view it as wise. Sure 2.4
gives
> us newer drivers, but mainly all it gets us is support for much larger
> number of processors and huge amounts of RAM, etc. This is not the kind of
> hardware or market they are targeting, and 2.4 is still not as stable as
> 2.2 is right now, and using it would break too many other things.
If you saw my post I didn't talk about the kernel. I think is ready for
prime time but at the same time, only the firewall code would be of real
usage for a "standar" e-smith user. So, keep it untill the change is really
needed.
> By the
> same token they have not added ReiserFS of JFS of XFS or ext3. Why? They
> have not been proven yet. I know SuSE and others believe that they are
> ready for primetime. Heck, my test machine running RedHat 7.2 beta is
> formatted with the ext3 filesystem right now, and my BeBox has had a
64-bit
> journaled filesystem for many years now. But again, this adds levels of
> uncertainty not only for configuration but support as well. In the target
> market mentioned above, it is just not ready yet. Don't get me wrong. I
> hate having to wait through a fsck as much as the next guy, but no
> journaled filesystem is ever a substitute for a good tape backup or backup
> to a desktop file. (I do agree that tapes are expensive. Once you go past
> 20gig, the best value out there is the Ecrix series which goes up to 66gig
> compressed and now comes in IDE and SCSI and run about $850). Tapes are
> valuable in that your can take them out of the data room and put them in a
> safe somewhere. If someone forgets to change the tapes, they are only
> shooting themselves in the foot.
You see, this is where I don't agree. I don't need Reiser because I want a
backup or even because I dont like to wait 3 hours for a startup, I need it
because it gives me a robust start. OK, W98 and WNT might take long to start
and we all know their weak points but you see, the system starts. I cant
tell my client that in a strange situation he might need to type a
complicated order as root when he doesn't know what root is. I don't what
him to do it either as he could break more than solve. I'm talking about a
robust start not backup or redundancy (RAID). Of course I love a 5 second
check but what scares me is the need to travel 500 km to solve a problem.
> The backup topic allows me to segue nicely into the idea of the second
> drive for backups. I like that one. I like it a lot. But not every left
> over machine that Mitel thinks people may put the software on has two
> drives. Drives are cheap you say? True, but again it adds levels of
> complexity to setup and support. It forces too many assumptions and
guesses
> on the part of the developers. This has been discussed in detail on the
> list before when questions arose about the default partitioning scheme.
> Have a simple /boot and / partition makes it much easier for flexbackup to
> work with. Adding other drives are partitions only makes life more
> difficult.
I agree. As I said, the standar install should be very limited and
straight forward BUT at the same time the "expert" should have some
flexibility to make some changes he considers necessary for that particular
client, machine or whatever. Maybe just give support for the basic scenario
and let the parter give support for the custom changes.
> My recommendation? Get an IDE RAID card. This solves the software issue
> altogether. The 3ware series seems to be a very good value at $129 for the
> 6200 2-port model, and the products from ARCO (http://www.arcoide.com)
seem
> to work well too. Get yourself two cheap 30gig IDE drives and you have
> yourself a nice RAID1 mirror. You can go SCSI, but that gets us back to
the
> cost issues again.
Yes you are right, but I was not talking about redundancy but security, I
still need the backup. BTW, I never use the software RAID, if I really need
RAID I will use IDE RAID as you just recommended.
> As far as a UPS being expensive, I agree as well. I bought a TrippLite
> 1400R rackmount unit to use with 8 outlets and it was about $600 is I
> recall. I was also able to get their PowerAlert software to install and
> work on e-smith with some modification. It all comes down to how much is
> your system and data worth. No matter what the power is going to go out
> sometime. $600.00 starts to not seem like so much.
Actually we could get cheaper units, but this is not a price problem, is a
cultural problem, try telling a W98 "expert" you need a UPS unit because you
cant asure a clean startup process becasuse linux doesn't support it. He
will say, ey WNT does this!! even worse, ey your old SUSE system made this,
why not this one, isn't it linux too? :)))
> A lot of the hardware ideas you suggest have already been tried by some
> people. Net Integration Technologies has their NetIntegrator box which
> works very similar to e-smith. They have a base load of the OS stored on a
> flash disk, that can be instantly be transferred to the main hard disk at
> the touch of a button on the front panel. They also have an LCD display
for
> monitoring and so forth. The problem? Again, it locks you in to certain
> hardware requirements to make use of the software. You do not have the
> freedom to build your own box. Of course, their solution is not open
source
> either :)
I was thinking more in a "special" hd partition for this, instead of a
Compact Flash. Easy CD Server has this and I remember an old Linux Journal
article that said something similar (for a lotto system in Australia). This
is not hardware dependant, just a new partition. I don't know how is done,
but if others have done it :) Manually would be something like "If your
system wont boot up, restart it and when LILO appears type panic" :)))) The
system starts in the emergency partition, reinstalls the system (you see why
a separate data and configuration partition is needed?) restores the
configuration and connects to e-smith ftp server and updates itself. All
this automatically. An expert user might be able to recover form this
scenario without needeing to reinstall, but this could be great for a
unkownful admin. A similar process is used in Maxtor NAS units.
> The monitoring add-on you have created is very well done. The combo of
that
> with the log monitor rpm (or Blade :) is a tremendous help to remote
> administer a box.
Thanks :))) Just wait till an alarm system is ready and we will have a
very good solution for admins :)
> So what's my point? Keep it simple, keep it so that any change that is
made
> to the distro makes sense from a stability standpoint, a functionality
> standpoint, and from the perspective that most (if not all) types of
> hardware could benefit from it. Anything else is just that...a custom
> add-on to suit the needs of a specific individual. It only makes for more
> confusion for those who may not share your expertise. Of course, this
> precludes the idea of making the journaled filesystem a blade, same with
> the second hard drive backup idea.
See my partner role comment. He is an expert. He should be able to do this
for you if he thinks it could help you. Maybe an standar install will be
enough for most of us, but again the partner has to earn his salary :))))
Just see what Darrell has done to extend E-smith. For example, the antivirus
is a must when you work in a Windows office. The client might think this
could be cheap or expensive, but he is used to have an antivirus (BTW, my
lovely admin as just discovered his office was infected with 5 virus :))))
Automating it, making it "transparent" helps this guys get their job done.
You just need to hear him about the backup system or linux stability to see
he loves the system.
> Or...as a community we could refine the hardware requirements that e-smith
> has put forth so that we all could build boxes with off the shelf hardware
> that provide the protection we need without having to modify the software.
> What tapes drives have been reported to work, RAID cards, etc, and then a
> list of a low, mid and high end box with part numbers so we can be sure
> they work. The various Linux databases out there are good, but none to my
> knowledge reflect e-smith specifically. A good example is the TrippLite
UPS
> I bought. Open source software for Linux included. Just don't call the
help
> desk. Oh, and if you don't have X Windows on the machine, forget about
> configuring it. That is why the contrib HOWTOs are so useful. they show us
> workarounds. What we need is the hardware equivalent.
I agree.
> Anyway, just my opinions. I could be wrong.
Opinions are never right or wrong, they are just opinions.
Regards.
Jaime
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