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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Ian Clarke)
2. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Mr.Bad)
3. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Ian Clarke)
4. Re: List gone quiet (Dev Random)
5. RE: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Fred Salzer)
6. RE: Aardvark (Benjamin Coates)
7. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Peter Todd)
8. Re: Announcement Protocol (Scott G. Miller)
9. Re: Aardvark (Scott G. Miller)
10. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Peter Todd)
11. RE: Aardvark (Fred Salzer)
12. RE: Aardvark (Benjamin Coates)
13. Re: Problems for splitting (g'o'tz ohnesorge)
14. Re: Using DOM for FProxy security (Tavin Cole)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:43:42 -0800
From: Ian Clarke <i...@octayne.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:15:43AM +0100, Oskar Sandberg wrote:
> I'm quite aware of the fact that the network is not working very well, and
> I'm quite pesimistic about whether it ever will, but there is really no
> point in being here at all if not operating under the assumption that we
> will get it to work some time...
It is annoying, simulations indicate that a network should have about
98% reliability and search-times of under 10 hops. Having said that,
data can still be requested, and the most serious problem I noticed
recently was that Aardvark was down - and that wasn't Freenet's fault.
According to www.octayne.com, there are 100 working Freenet nodes at
least (undoubtedly many more since the limit is 100 nodes).
Someone was doing some experiments on Freenet's reliability over time -
did anything come of that?
Ian.
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--__--__--
Message: 2
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: Mr.Bad <mr....@pigdog.org>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 02 Feb 2001 18:40:44 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "OS" == Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se> writes:
OS> I'm quite aware of the fact that the network is not working
OS> very well, and I'm quite pesimistic about whether it ever
OS> will
Really? Do you think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the
architecture? Or do you think it's just a matter of the current set of
nodes?
OS> but there is really no point in being here at all if not
OS> operating under the assumption that we will get it to work
OS> some time...
You're absolutely right! That's why it's probably good to try and keep
a positive attitude and open communications.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:57:04 -0800
From: Ian Clarke <i...@octayne.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 06:40:44PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> Really? Do you think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the
> architecture? Or do you think it's just a matter of the current set of
> nodes?
Simulations suggest it is not a problem with the current architecture
(although simulations are rarely 100% accurate). I think the problem is
that not enough people are actually *using* Freenet right now - perhaps
a new release will help to address that issue. This is why we really
need a constant stream of releases to hold people's attention until
there is some real content on there with some "pulling power".
Ian.
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--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:12:56 -0800
From: Dev Random <devran...@hyper.to>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] List gone quiet
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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Hey, why don't we turn the filter on? I haven't heard a bug report in ages.
On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 05:29:35PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "IC" =3D=3D Ian Clarke <lists at octayne.com> writes:
>=20
> IC> Mr. Bad - are there any outstanding issues before we release
> IC> 0.3.7? If not, we should release. You are welcome to do the
> IC> honours, but I am happy to do it if not.
>=20
> Only the Aardvark link on the gateway page, and I'll check that
> later.
>=20
> I'll release tonight.
>=20
> ~Mr. Bad
>=20
> --=20
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> /\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
> \ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
> | (X \x) =20
> ( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
> \ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://www.uprizer.com/mailman/listinfo/devl
--=20
Dev Random
Fingerprint: 3ABC FCEF 1BCE 4528 E4FD 15EB 173A 76D2 6959 DAF1
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--__--__--
Message: 5
From: "Fred Salzer" <fsal...@sempre.com>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: RE: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:23:22 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>Someone was doing some experiments on Freenet's reliability over time -
>did anything come of that?
>
>Ian
See Peter's answer to my message below. Incidently, I never have found out
anyone else's short-term retrieval rate. What do others experience?
Fred
On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, you wrote:
> I ran some tests over the last two days of inserting data into Freenet and
> then requesting from another machine. I inserted 3 sets of 20 very small
> (~50 byte) files and immediately requested them several times for a total
of
> 8 attempts. I averaged retrieving about 11 files per attempt, with a
maximum
> of 15 out of 20 and a minimum of 9 out of 20. Unless you can reliably
> retrieve files immediately inserted, or at least know the short-term
> retrieval rate, IMO, long-term retrieval rates won't be of much use. I'd
be
> interested in knowing your (or anyone's) short-term retrieval rate; my
> results may not be typical. I get similar results (subjective, I didn't
> count them) retrieving Pigdog Journal pages and validated links on GJ's
> Webpage.
Well seeing your results I don't think I'll do my test anytime
soon... Not worth it, I'm really time strapped right now. I've got 20
or so hours of computer science homework alone that I need to get
done. (I missed a lot while on vacation)
--
retep at penguinpowered.com http://retep.tripod.com
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:44:16 -0500
From: Benjamin Coates <coa...@mailandnews.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>From Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se>
>On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:00:45PM -0500, Benjamin Coates wrote:
>> > From Mr.Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
>>
>> >If you're suggesting only linking to CHKs, well, that's pretty wrong,
>> >and I don't think you understand the thread. I don't think we have a
>> >mechanism for doing date-based redirects with CHKs, unless I'm
>> >grievously mistaken. Same goes for SVKs.
>>
>> Date based redirects do also work with SVKs.
>
>But SVKs are pointless. There is no reason to use them.
>
oh, whoops. I thought Mr. Bad said SSKs, and I should have said "Date based
redirects do also work with SSKs" which they do. Date based redirects do not
work for SVKs or CHKs. (More accurately, the *target* of a date based
redirect cannot be an SVK or a CHK, since there is no human readable portion
to mangle. The redirect itself can be any keytype.)
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 7
From: Peter Todd <ret...@home.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:56:03 -0500
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Fri, 02 Feb 2001, you wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 06:40:44PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> > Really? Do you think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the
> > architecture? Or do you think it's just a matter of the current set of
> > nodes?
>
> Simulations suggest it is not a problem with the current architecture
> (although simulations are rarely 100% accurate). I think the problem is
> that not enough people are actually *using* Freenet right now - perhaps
> a new release will help to address that issue. This is why we really
> need a constant stream of releases to hold people's attention until
> there is some real content on there with some "pulling power".
Won't work. People will realise that Freenet is useless even
with all these cool releases with magical features that aren't used.
Content is what we need. Realisticly that means people uploading
mp3's and the like. And obviously no-one here is going to publicly
admit doing so.
Still it's not all doom and gloom, the upcoming articals in the Linux
Journel, mine is to be published in April, should help us out.
--
retep at penguinpowered.com http://retep.tripod.com
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:01:45 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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>=20
> Okay this is just a guess: If I was Alice I could ask some of my trusted
> nodes or only one (if its the node of my best friend) to give me some
> addresses) with their PK. (Is this possible?)
>=20
> Then they will immediately reply with a bunch of NodeRefs from their
> Datastore. Now I would pick some of them and attach them to my
> AnnouncementRequest. This means Alice decides which route the announcement
> goes. First attached address first node, second address second node ...
Thats not a good idea. You don't want any specific node to control the
keyspace assigned to Alice. More importantly, the entire point is to
create random links in the network when adding a new node. Simulations
show this as increasing the reliability of Freenet routing by 20-30% over
inform. Allowing Alice to choose nodes already close to her trusted
friends would be equal or worse than inform.
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--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:05:47 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 05:29:11PM -0500, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> >=20
> > > An evil node can easily spoof a KSK. Plus someone else can easily st=
eal
> > Only if he knows its text key or dictionary attacks it.
>=20
> Not a big problem that. Any dedicated attacker could easilly compile
> a list of target KSK's and attack them. In the reverse direction I've
> compiled a hash -> key list for my own use to find out what my node
> is doing. I can identify about %0.1 of the data that goes through and
> I spent only about 20 minutes compiling the list. Any dedicated person
> with automaticly robots would get a way, way higher result.
>=20
> Also dictionary attacks,
> though expensive, can be done.
>=20
> And finally I've had one of my keys, KSK at robots.txt, overwritten by
> someone else. Though the key should soon drop out with the new
> special-case of robots.txt in fproxy.
Your absolutely correct and are in fact backing up my position. I was
just clarifying the point, but I entirely agree. KSKs are
bad. *Baaaad*. When you're about to use a KSK, ask yourself three
questions:
1) Do I need a KSK?
2) Really?
3) Repeat question 1
Scott
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Message: 10
From: Peter Todd <ret...@home.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:01:36 -0500
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Fri, 02 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> According to www.octayne.com, there are 100 working Freenet nodes at
> least (undoubtedly many more since the limit is 100 nodes).
How many of those Freenet nodes are *really* working? Far, far lower
I suspect given that my node, which does get well established in the
network, rarely has references to more then 3 nodes at a time. Even
if I force a load of a pile of references through nodes.config it
takes only an hour or two before it weeds out %95 of the nodes.
I've also noticed that the set of references that do exist often
completely changes as nodes are shutdown on a pretty regular, once
every few days, bases.
> Someone was doing some experiments on Freenet's reliability over time -
> did anything come of that?
I was going to but in the end never did after hearing tales of horrid
reliability from another person.
--
retep at penguinpowered.com http://retep.tripod.com
--__--__--
Message: 11
From: "Fred Salzer" <fsal...@sempre.com>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:41:15 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
I might be totally missing something but it seems as if we need to insert a
file and then publish the file retrieval information in an index that
accomodates both the description or index reference and either the CHK or
SSK. The indexes I've seen only accomodate one key, usually the KSK, and the
CHKs alone are virtually useless.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
On February 02, 2001 20:06 Scott G. Miller wrote:
Your absolutely correct and are in fact backing up my position. I was
just clarifying the point, but I entirely agree. KSKs are
bad. *Baaaad*. When you're about to use a KSK, ask yourself three
questions:
1) Do I need a KSK?
2) Really?
3) Repeat question 1
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:41:24 -0500
From: Benjamin Coates <coa...@mailandnews.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>From "Fred Salzer" <fsalzer at sempre.com>
>I might be totally missing something but it seems as if we need to insert a
>file and then publish the file retrieval information in an index that
>accomodates both the description or index reference and either the CHK or
>SSK. The indexes I've seen only accomodate one key, usually the KSK, and the
>CHKs alone are virtually useless.
>
>Fred
SSKs are good for this, as they allow a human-readable key.
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 06:44:42 +0100
From: "g'o'tz ohnesorge" <gohneso...@lh-computertechnik.de>
Organization: kann auch deutsch *<:o)
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Problems for splitting
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Timm Murray wrote:
> I've said this almost every time file splitting comes up, but
> I'll say it again.
>
> Some types of data do not split well. For instance, RPMs (before
> I found the light of Debian) segfault when I tried to use one
> that I had split. I don't know why, but we should find out before
> splitting becomes mandatory.
Can't that problem be sufficiently solved by wrapping files to be split
in a
format that supports this better, like .ZIP or .RAR do?
--__--__--
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:36:36 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <ta...@mailandnews.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Using DOM for FProxy security
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 05:28:43PM -0800, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Timm Murray wrote:
> >
> > Ian Clarke wrote on 1/28/01 11:27 pm:
> > <>
> > >Anyone fancy learning a new
> > >language (actually it is just
> > >Javascript)?
> >
> > OK, Mr. Plugins-won't-work-for-all-browsers.
>
> Apples and oranges.
Um, in what context exactly do you envision this DOM-juggling javascript
executing?
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
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